Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Speaker A: You are listening to exploring Satir's legacy, the Virginia Satir podcast. I'm your host, Michael Argumanis Harden, and together we will embark on the journey of self discovery, empowerment, and meaningful connection.
Let's dive in.
Today we have the privilege of hosting an international Virginia satir trainer, a true luminary in the field, and a passionate advocate for the Satir model.
Our guest, Steven Buckby, has not only worked closely with the legendary Virginia satir, but has dedicated his life to spreading awareness for her groundbreaking therapeutic approach. Today, he shares his unique insights, experiences, and his unwavering commitment to carrying forward Satir's legacy. Stephen will not only shed light on his remarkable experiences working with Virginia Satir, but also he'll delve into one of his favorite assessment tools, the Satir self Mandala.
Join me in welcoming our esteemed guest, Stephen Buckby, as he shares his wisdom, stories, and passion for empowering individuals and families through the Satir model.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Steve Buckby, I am so excited to have you on the show today.
[00:01:22] Speaker C: Good to be with you.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Well, you know, we've been friends for a while now, and I love the stories you tell and just the way that you help people. I just thought it'd be great to have a conversation.
[00:01:35] Speaker C: It's a enjoyed. I remember our first meeting. It was a time of laughter and connection, and it got to the point where there was a real seriousness about Virginia's work.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: Well, what I loved most about it is just connecting with another man who has a passion for being able to do this work and connecting with people and loving on people.
[00:01:59] Speaker C: Good, because it's really what it's all about, right?
[00:02:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. Well, I have some questions.
First, your story.
I love hearing about how you connected to the Virginia Satir world, Virginia Satir herself, and the work that you're now dedicated to. Can you talk a little bit about that?
[00:02:18] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, I'd be happy to.
I'll never forget it. I was teaching at a community college. I'd been a clinical social worker in several different settings, community mental health, inpatient alcohol unit, and then back to community mental health. And in the moving around, I got offered a job at a community college to teach for them, and I joined. And then they said, there's a conference that you might be interested in. And it was one in Chicago and being offered by Virginia satir.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: What year was this?
[00:02:55] Speaker C: 1985.
So I went down, I studied a lot of her work.
I came out of social work school not knowing what the hell I was doing, and I went on a quest to try to find things that worked.
And I got into all kinds of different things. I've noticed NLP, da da da, looking for techniques and methods. And then I ran into Virginia and she was not about techniques and methods. She was about doing therapy at a core level. And so I went to see her in this Chicago workshop and it was the most amazing thing I'd ever seen in my life. There were 2000 people in there, most of them professional human services workers, psychologists, lots of people. And she had a family that she was working with. And the way she worked with that family not only was just absolutely beautiful, but it was incredibly transformative. And in the process, she used everybody in the audience to help make that transformation.
And I thought it was like, amazing.
So then she did a couple of things and asked for volunteers. And I ran up right away to try to get connected to this thing that was happening because it was the first true, real experiential teaching I'd ever.
When I say Virginia was a social artist, she was definitely aware of context and what she was doing and never did it the same, although she was always operating on the same underlying principles.
So then she said, does anybody want to come and learn more about what I'm doing? So here's this woman who's doing this amazing work and she's asking people to learn to understand what she's been doing and that it isn't just this hocus pocus or magic show, that there's really a process. So I did that. I said, okay. And I went out to see her and spend a month with her in 1986. And that was the most intensive experience I've ever had. She worked in triads. Everything she did was triadic because of the idea of the family system. Sperm, egg, you, client, observer, therapist. And so everything she did was in a triad. So you spent 90 days with people in a triadic situation, which soon became chaotic, and pretty soon.
But first she built trust. She built a container to handle all of this ox that emerged. And then people would say, I don't want to live with this roommate or whatever. And she'd say, come on up here and talk about it. Then she'd say things like, well, what do you know about somebody doing that to you? And pretty soon dad would be on stage and pretty soon she'd have the whole family up there. And it was just a magical thing to kind of watch.
And what really impressed me too, was the way she did that was so wonderful. She had these teams that she worked with. She had three people these training triads and those three people would take two or three groups to work with. So it was always hands on, and it was always, don't do this with somebody until you've done your own work. And so she came out and said, here, I'm going to teach you how to do this. Then the next thing you know is that you were doing it with your partner or your training triad. So it was very intensive. And then during the break, she would encourage people to go practice and when they got home, to get training, teaching triads. So that's kind of what happened in my life. She said, stephen, when you get home, why don't you set up a training triad? So I picked Mike dupont and dan Doyle to come and join me, and they went down to Chicago and studied with michelle Baldwin and Jane Gerber and went through the whole process. And when we hit the road, well, we got asked by the state of Michigan, there was a problem in the jails. And I was working with the jails historically, and so was dan and mike. And the problem in the jails was there was no sight and sound separation between juveniles and adults. They would take juveniles and lock them up. And jails were a very dangerous place for kids. They were dying, and so they wanted to figure out how to do it, especially in rural areas. And so there was a program set up called regional Detention Services, where the probate courts would have volunteers to sit with these kids in a non jail setting kitchen, in a police office or a city hall or wherever. And we trained the people who sat with these kids for three days, and we did nothing but Virginia satir's idea or work. And it was, first of all, teaching the fact that every human being is an absolute, unique manifestation of life, worthy of love.
And as a guy who worked in a long time in a jail, I found out a lot of people had no belief that they mattered.
[00:07:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:58] Speaker C: They just didn't know, and nobody ever told them. And most of the information we have about who we are comes from someplace else.
Right. And so we have to make meaning about that all the time as we grow up. And some of these contexts that these people grow up in are so there's nobody to step in. So even in these little things, when kids are being sat with by people, adults who are non judgmental, who aren't there to cost them or hurt them, but to just be with them and listen, we want them to be respectful of this unique being that's been.
[00:08:29] Speaker B: One of the most impressive things to me is how Virginia's work is not just work for inside of a traditional therapy room, it can be taken on the road in different ways in different arenas. I know that people are using it in it, in business.
And so you're saying this was incredible to be able to use with people who care for juveniles that are being locked up?
[00:08:52] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. We've done nurses, we've done jails, we've done the Detroit police department, juvenile officers, and they're all, I mean, when you're done after three days and people are just amazed. And the question I get is, how come nobody's teaching this stuff?
And the answer is, because Virginia has just died, 1988.
And transferring that information and trying to make people aware of what's happened or what she did, it's like, in some senses, of discipleship. I hate to use the word, but I really believe that this work needs to be taught. And that's one of the reasons when she asked, she said, before she died, she asked me to join her as a teacher in her organization at that time was called Avanta. And I was pretty honored to do that. And then she died. So I was kind of the last child in the family.
And I really think that that was an important charge that she gave me, was to execute that, help execute her beliefs in creating a learning center that would help people become more fully human.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: You mentioned earlier it does take people with passion for what she was teaching to just further this even more. How were your perceptions or how were you impacted by her work?
[00:10:07] Speaker C: Well, it changed my life. It changed my view of therapy.
Therapy became much easier. Teaching became much easier.
And I don't know how to explain that, other than to say that she was really about teaching people to be congruent, to be loving, to let go of old stuff that you can't change.
When the idea lit up in my head that how she did what she did, one of the things was to allow people to see old information in new ways.
And so that was genius, because people say, my dad is only my mother.
So she taught people how she created techniques and method and ways to allow people in a safe way to make transformations about old belief systems. And that was amazing. So here's this woman that comes from a small farm in Wisconsin. She comes from a poor family.
She's a genius in school. She does incredible things.
She ended up teaching at the school, and she creates these ideas. After working with people in Chicago, after having a very difficult career, after working out an ESL institute, she had, by that time, assimilated all that to. She really understood what she wanted to teach. And so I ran into her at a good time.
I ran into her at that time when she was creating videos and making audio tapes so that those things could be used when she was no longer able to do that. And that's really what's happening right now. So how it affected me is these models make sense to me. And I think I'm going to work with Mike and Dan in a week with a credit union.
And all we're going to do is we're going to go in and talk about something called the process of change. And as you said, that's one of those models that transcends every discipline. You can use it at your personal level, you can use it at your business, you can use it in your bank, you can use it in any context, because processes is universal. That's what made it genius.
It makes me astounded to have that kind of tool to help people understand the processes that they're going through. So that was really exciting. And then you asked a question about what were some of the things that resonated for me is the learning that this woman had things like the process of change, that there was an idea called the mandala and the dimensions of being human family mapping, temperature reading, how to do sculpting, how to take people and put them in positions in a Gestalt therapy kind of way in small and large groups and let them see things that they would normally have to conceptualize in their head. I actually was asked once to help teach people how to use computers at a hospital. So we had all these docs that didn't want to learn any about computers. So what we did is we sculpted a computer.
We made one person the input, one person be the screen. And we created a whole computer to talk about how systems.
So to tie in again, you can sculpt anything. You can give people ways of seeing things by using this Gestalt method that she had. And again, that comes from her work at Eslin. She just integrated it and made it into a Virginia thing. So I got pretty excited by that.
Parts, parties, family reconstructions, those are all things that are brand new in my world, certainly.
And the other thing that really struck me and resonates, still does, is that Virginia, when I started doing counseling at community mental health, we didn't really have a DSc on three or not. You know, we didn't have that. And then all of a sudden, one day, somebody came in and put one on my desk and said, this is how you're going to do it from now on, right?
[00:14:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:31] Speaker C: And it was so new, and Virginia didn't pay attention to that. She was really interested in how people operate. And, you know, it's really interesting, though, in therapy, when you're with somebody. Virginia's number one thing was also always the safety of the person, her way of taking care. She would take risks, but she would do them in such a safe way.
But when she was deep, when she had an audience, when she was doing a day long thing or something like that, the energy was just phenomenal because of the fact that involved everybody in the room.
There's a tape called the Montebello tapes, which we have on the global network. And on the first day, she has all these physicians from Montebello in the area of Canada in this one room, and they're all ready for a presentation, right? They're all ready for her to get behind the podium. She steps in front of the podium with the microphone, and then she says, okay, what I want you to do is thank you for inviting me, kind of thing. And then she says, now what you want you to do is want everybody to go around, and I want you to introduce yourselves and say hi to the person next to you. And the elevation of the little chatter just changed. Just amazing. And so that's how she would always start thing. And the next immediate thing she did was she immediately asked for three volunteers, and she came up and she sculpted a family immediately. So now everybody is projecting their family there. This is your father. And that's the way she worked. I was thinking last night about this conversation. I was thinking about how many influences she had and how deep she was, from Gregory Bateson to the ability to transfer a lot of these amazingly complex ideas into a world where everybody can understand them. That's what Virginia did in many ways. She took these techniques and ideas from great thinking people, and she did an amalgamation of those, and then she put them out, in a way, and that's why she made books. Like, people know if anybody's listening to this, that has never visited people making, too, or people making. They owe it to themselves to do it, because it's a basic, wonderful sample of Virginia's ideas.
[00:16:49] Speaker B: So easy to read. Also, she made it very.
[00:16:52] Speaker C: Yes, yes, exactly.
And the same, I think, that happened with the satir models. It's very easy to read. It's written by Bam and Gerber and Gomori with Satir, and it's a nice primer for understanding these.
[00:17:12] Speaker B: Know, you've mentioned several of the techniques or what Satir called vehicles of change. I know that we've been in conversations with John Bainman also. And just the point has been made that Virginia Satir's model is much more than just the vehicles of change.
[00:17:30] Speaker C: Now.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: The vehicles of change make it so accessible. And sometimes the vehicles of change are the only thing that students learn in grad school about Virginia satir. But there's so much more depth to her model. Talk a little bit about that.
[00:17:43] Speaker C: That is right on the money.
It's not about techniques. When I was looking at know and doing all these things with Gilligan charter and trying to understand what that was, it was really people teaching somebody about techniques. It wasn't really about making contact. Satiru is about making contact, number one, in a sincere and congruent fashion.
Therapy isn't something I love. This quote isn't something you do to somebody. It's something you do with somebody.
So when you talk about a technique, the technique has to have some process goal, something that is about that individual.
It's not just hammering nails in the boards.
It's about a sacred trust that happens between the therapist and the client. And I think it is sacred. It needs to be totally respectful and congruent. And so when you're talking about techniques, techniques are just things that facilitate things. Like if I'm going to teach you about sculpting, then you can do that. But if you're looking at it from the big view, you're really looking at the process that's occurring and the emotions that are being evoked, and from them, the belief systems that occur, people will get resistance.
[00:18:59] Speaker B: If it's just technique, the established trust is not there and the connection that they are obviously seeing that you're making.
[00:19:07] Speaker C: Absolutely.
That's one of the reasons I had a hard time with looking at hypnosis. I mean, I studied it for a while and it's really interesting, but it's really just a technique.
And I'm not saying it's all bad, but I am saying that it's so different than satir's work. Although Satir involved trance because when she would do sculpts, obviously people did. They manifested their family right in front of them, and it was. That dynamic has to have a heart and soul.
[00:19:45] Speaker B: Yeah, sure.
[00:19:47] Speaker C: Can't say one thing more that Dorothy Beckfire wrote, and it's called soul healing, a spiritual orientation and counseling and therapy by Dorothy Beckbry. Amazing book related to this conversation, because that's in some ways what this is about.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: And people can get that just by going to Amazon or any good.
Steve, you mentioned several times already in this interview, the word congruence. And I know that anybody connected to satir understands the fullness of that word and what she meant when she used the word congruence. But can you explain a little bit the idea, the concept of congruence, as satir would have taught it?
[00:20:31] Speaker C: It means genuine means when I say the insides match the outsides, it means that it's straight.
That one is. Virginia talked about the five freedoms. And one of the things that congruences is being straight without blaming, without placating, without using the stances, but being. Speaking from the heart and talking about what's going on.
So congruent is being basically pretty centered.
You can go deeper than that. But congruent also at the deepest level, is that you are a spiritual being like the other person you're talking to. And you start at that place of respect.
And also that when you're with somebody and they're talking, you need to listen and be present and understand. It's their story.
And understanding their story is really part of the whole idea, is that you need to pay attention to the story, and then you need to listen to the themes of the story. Right. So congruence is, in fact, in that sense, being centered with people, being attentive, being connected, and also with yourself.
That's really interesting. I think it's being aware of how you're doing is pretty congruent.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: Right. I think that's one of the most powerful things, because so many people, when they get into conversations, they are bringing in what they want to bring in, and they're just honoring themselves. But there are some people who deny themselves completely in a conversation and only pay attention to the other person.
And of course, that's not congruent communication either. So the idea that satir would say, the spirit in which you come in and you have respect for the other person is so important.
But she would also include this respect that you have for yourself and the honoring of your own experience.
[00:22:36] Speaker C: Yes, and I remember all these. She would do hand exercises with people. But one of the ones that I always like to use was the one about, you have two human beings, and they connect and they let go.
And in any relationship, if people can connect and let go, they'll be doing okay. But if it becomes an enmeshed relationship where no one can let go, then that creates a dependency which becomes pathological. So Virginia would say what the healthiest relationships are when people can be on their own 2ft and respect each other in a loving way without this hierarchy, without the blaming without the placating. But, and in fact, I think about the programs that came out of Satir with David golden and Paula golden was say it straight.
Virginia was really all about teaching people to say it straight without blaming, without blacating, without being irrelevant.
[00:23:34] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I kind of want to switch gears here and ask about your current work, because I know that while you've been in this work and you started with Virginia, you have sustained yourself in this satir universe, and you continue to build and promote and teach people. Talk a little bit about your current work connected to Virginia Satir.
[00:23:58] Speaker C: I think the biggest thing that I'm interested right now is this kind of thing, this forum that we use, the cybernet, and then we bring satir to the world in new ways. And so one of my goals is really to promote the video work, the audio work, and put them in a format in a context that the world can hear, and to do online training with people like yourself and others to bring satir to a wider base and also to create a legitimate. The problem is, historically, that Virginia has not been taught in family systems and universities to any great extent. So one of my hopes and wishes certainly, is to facilitate that effort in any way I can by working with a team of people to create forums and curriculums that can be taught and will be accepted by all the universities in the country.
In my mind, a lot of this should be taught in third grade.
[00:25:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. But you're not just teaching this online. You've actually go around the world. You're an international speaker.
[00:25:12] Speaker C: Yeah, less lately than earlier, but certainly you've been lucky enough to teach in the Czech Republic and China and Hong Kong, Canada, and England. And everybody comes with a belly button.
And so it's so easy to make a connection with satir because you just go to that place and you make the connection at the belly button level, and then it's what we've been doing. So I really have that the training will continue, I'm sure. The problem is that I'm getting older, so it's a lot more convenient for me to do a lot of this training online. I have one I think I might be doing with a group in China, but that's still in the process.
[00:26:02] Speaker B: It's amazing, as you mentioned, these different countries that you've been to, and really those that are very interested in Virginia Satir's model.
So many of the current models, people are trying to know, are they culturally sensitive? Are they able to transfer to other cultures and be understood? And are they respectful. There's so many people that are drawn to Virginia that hear from all over the world. What has your experience been?
[00:26:28] Speaker C: Nothing but know. You can go to Poland, which is the most catholic country in the world, and then you can go to the Czech Republic, which is really the most atheist country in the world, and they both love the model. And you can talk about spirituality, and neither one of them is going to get crazy about it. You can go to China and talk about spirituality in a way like life energy. Everybody knows about it. There is a conversation that I remember Virginia having was she was talking about her contact with Margaret Mead, and they were talking about universals. And when I was early in my education, people questioned whether universals existed or not, right? So here they are. Here's Virginia. Steer comes up with this idea of the concepts are universal, and that's when she develops this idea of the mandala. And she looks at the fact that every culture has ways of explaining themselves. So she says, it's a human.
And so these are the same dimensions, and everybody has them everywhere, everywhere in the world. So if you start with that, you can't miss. Now, they all have different beliefs around each of these dimensions, but they all have them. It's like a belly button. Everybody has one. It's a symbol of your separateness, of your coming into the world. And so if you ask everybody, Norm, how many have a belly button? Everybody raises their hand.
How many of you were created by sperm and egg? And everybody says, yeah, me. So everywhere in the world, people have these dimensions. We just talk about them in different ways. And everybody has a mom, whether they like it or not. And everybody has a dad, right? And if they have a right, so they have an order in the family system. And it doesn't matter if it's China or the Czech Republic. They got a mom and they got a dad. And what's the job of a child? To frustrate their parents, right?
They have to become their own human being, and so they have to learn how to do that. And so they've got two people teaching them how to do that. And then there's always this pushback, because as they teach them, they also grow. So there's this process by the time between twelve and 18, where they're always really kind of in a challenging position because they're becoming them. They're becoming a social self. And it's so amazing. And that happens every culture.
[00:28:52] Speaker B: Isn't that true?
[00:28:53] Speaker C: Isn't it wonderful?
[00:28:55] Speaker B: It is.
[00:28:55] Speaker C: So you can. That's what makes the tears so brilliant. It's because everybody has parents and grandparents, whether you knew them or not, and they have a story, and that story influenced the family you come from.
So that's the story you start with. And again, most of what we know about who we are comes from other people, and we have to go inside and make meaning about it. And sometimes the meaning is absolutely wrong.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: One of the things, as I've gotten to know many of you who walked with Virginia satir and trained with her and continue to do her work, is that you've each become expert in different parts of what she taught. And yours, I've found, is the mandala. The self mandala is something that is precious to you, and you teach it so well. Talk a little bit about your interest in the mandala and why that became so important to you.
[00:29:49] Speaker C: I actually have my notes about 5ft away. When I took them in 1986. I was sitting in the back on the third row, and seriously in the fire hall, and Virginia said, started talking about mandalas, and I kind of was half paying attention, and she started talking about cultures and mandalas, and I wondered, what the hell this is going to go.
And then she started talking about universals. Now my ears perked up, and I'm really interested in this thing. And she starts naming the dimensions of being human. You know, you got the spiritual dimension, the physical. And I thought, my God, that's true. It's absolutely true. We all have these dimensions. How come nobody's talking about this? How come I didn't get this earlier? And just prior to that, she was having a conversation about the process of change, and the iceberg was in there, and I drew a picture of the iceberg and the mandala altogether, because I see them as interconnected. And so I just see it as a teaching tool that hasn't been exploited in the sense that it has great possibilities.
If you're doing an assessment, it's always important to understand that all these dimensions need to be nurtured and cared for. So I want people to be able to look at these things called mandalas and appreciate that you all have a sensory piece, and you have a spiritual piece, and you have a physical piece, and you have an interaction, and all these things are interconnected. So, like, if you're doing a senior assessment, how's the context looking? How's the nutrition doing? How are they doing intellectually? How are they doing emotionally? What's the physical limitations? How are their senses working? Can they smell? Can they taste? Can they touch? How's their spiritual connection? They have any. How's their interaction? Are they lonely? Are they connected? Do they use television? How do they connect with other people? So all of those dimensions are right there.
I thought, what a tool.
I thought, I got to teach this.
[00:31:53] Speaker B: And it seems like you do really see this as an assessment tool that a therapist can use to make an assessment of how each of the different dimensions of the human is doing.
[00:32:03] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. And an assessment of how family sets themselves up. Because if you're doing homework or teaching people about it, what are your rules in your family run each dimension? Do you have nutritional rules? What are the contextual dimensions? And so when I'm talking about diversity, I love to use this in my social class because I would simply put people from different cultures all together in triads. And then I talk to them about what is normal in each context, each dimension. And it would be phenomenal conversations. It would be amazing. Just around nutritional was always amazing.
There's this thing about this model offers people a way of doing exploration.
And I also like it about vulnerabilities.
When you talk to people like police officers or nurses and you look at your own personal mandala, we've all got vulnerabilities around our dimensions, physical, intellectual. And so the question is, how do you protect your vulnerabilities? When somebody attacks you in a nursing situation and calls you a name, where do you go and then what reaction do you have?
Because if you've got a big vulnerability that you're going to get hooked and then you're going to be responding and you're not going to be congruent. You're going to be in a stance instead of taking a deep breath and realizing, unhooking yourself, that's what you need to be able to do. So if you help people in preparation before they get into that situation by exploring some of the vulnerabilities. So I like to use it also as an inventory. Right. For self.
I could talk about it for a long time.
[00:33:53] Speaker B: I love hearing you talk about it.
[00:33:55] Speaker C: There's a know. I just came back from a workshop in the Czech Republic and it was so wonderful. And a person wanted to take a walk. She was having some issues around body. And just to make this quick, we surrounded her with her parts and she did this amazing interaction about what she needed and how to get them. And so in like a two hour period, it was an amazing transformation, just phenomenal.
And a way of seeing a new way, a new.
[00:34:31] Speaker B: You know, it's funny how you just casually talk about how you were just at the Czech Republic. And you also say that you don't do that nearly as much anymore, but you're still traveling around. I've seen you face to face. I know you travel.
[00:34:44] Speaker C: Oh, I do travel. It just gets harder.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:48] Speaker C: I appreciate that. I probably won't go back to China, although I will do long. It's too hard, 24 hours to get there and that kind of thing.
[00:34:59] Speaker B: Anyway, what I'd like to do to close out our time today is ask you this one last question.
What is a satir message you would like to leave with our listeners to close out our time? Something that she would want to give them, to take with them.
[00:35:16] Speaker C: I guess the first one is that you are an absolute, amazing, unique manifestation of life.
To appreciate that on a daily basis really gives one hope, no matter what's going on, and that change is always possible.
It's not easy, but it's always possible. And everybody is worthy of love. To learn to appreciate that is really. I think it's not egoistic.
You are an amazing manifestation of life. And if people could see that in everything, that we are connected at a universal level, that we are really, truly the stuff of stars, maybe my best hope would be we would treat each other know. Virginia was passionate about making the world a different place. She was passionate about teaching people to love one another. She really did want to end war. She really did. She had a dream about that kind of thing. She thought what people need to do is stop with the hierarchical model, and they need to begin to treat each other as if everyone matters, not some more than others. And so she was a raging idealist, and I love that about her.
I don't think we have to take a pessimistic road down.
I still believe this. If everybody woke up tomorrow morning and believed they mattered, everything would be transformed.
[00:36:43] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:36:45] Speaker C: Anyway.
[00:36:46] Speaker B: Well, Stephen Buckby, I am so glad that we were able to connect. I love that we are friends, but I love that the audience gets to know you in this way, because not everybody has the blessing of knowing Stephen Buckme, and it certainly is a blessing.
[00:37:01] Speaker C: Thank you, Michael.
[00:37:06] Speaker A: As we conclude this episode of the Virginia Satir podcast, I want to leave you with a reminder that the journey of self discovery and transformation is ongoing.
Virginia Satir's wisdom continues to inspire us to nurture healthier relationships, foster open communication, and embrace personal growth. Remember, you hold the power to create positive change in your life and the lives of those around you. Well, that's it for today's episode. See you next week. Thanks for listening to the Virginia Sitier podcast. Be sure to like, subscribe and give us a review wherever you listen to the podcast and share this with a friend. Also, for more information on Virginia Satir, you can go to satirglobal.com or liveconnectedtherapy.com. Until next time, be kind to yourself and to others. You are a miracle.
