Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: My belief, I don't hear anybody else saying this, but I think my belief is that when you study satir and when you believe in what she does and you practice it in your everyday life, not just your personal or professional life, your everyday life, if you become more fully human, so to speak, then you can use any method and it'll be enhanced.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: You are listening to exploring Satir's legacy, the Virginia Satir podcast. I am your host, Michael Argumanis Hardin, and together we will embark on the journey of self discovery, empowerment, and meaningful connection.
Let's dive in.
Today's guest is Diana Hall. Diana hall went to UC Berkeley and graduated with a BA in psychology.
Her early career was as a special education teacher. During her many years serving children who were on the spectrum, she earned five different credentials in her field and experienced much success engaging her students with experiential interventions.
When she met Virginia Satir, she was inspired. She decided to go back and get her master's degree in counseling.
Diana became a licensed marriage and family therapist, applying the Satir model to helping high conflict couples and their children.
She became well known in her field and was invited to present many conferences in relationship to her work with domestic violence and couple therapy. While Diana's relationships with satirist began as a student, then an apprentice, and later an employee of Virginia, Diana hall reports that the great blessing in her life is that they became close friends. She became Virginia's confidant and dear companion.
Diana hall was named the Satir Global Network Living Treasure in 2016.
It is with great joy I welcome Diana hall as our guest to today's episode.
[00:02:11] Speaker C: Diana Hall, I am so excited to have you on the podcast today. I know that your relationship with Virginia Satir was a very special one, and I can't wait to hear some of those stories. But you were a marriage and family therapist as well, were you not?
[00:02:30] Speaker A: Yes, I was.
[00:02:31] Speaker C: Yeah. So you've been in the field for quite some time.
Can I start by asking you a few questions just about your own career?
[00:02:40] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:02:41] Speaker C: Tell me, in what ways do you see the marriage and family therapy profession changing over the years?
[00:02:48] Speaker A: Changing over the years?
Well, it's hard for me. I really didn't become a family therapist until after I met Virginia.
I can tell you about that.
I went to, I graduated in psychology from Berkeley, and you can't do anything with a ba in psychology. You have to get your master's or your doctorate. And I didn't want to go to school anymore. I wanted to get married, and so I left that field and went into what became a teacher because they were desperate for teachers. You could get a job anywhere.
And I became a special ed teacher, a regular ed. And then I taught special ed. For the first 20 years, I was a teacher of special ed. I used my psychology in teaching because I taught autistic and emotionally disturbed kids that had syndrome. I concentrated on my teaching and how to help those kinds of kids.
[00:03:57] Speaker C: What great experience and also what level of compassion and love you had to be able to serve a population that a lot of people don't fully understand.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: Yes, they were. I guess they'd say they were challenging, but people said, how can you be patient when kids are throwing tantrums and they're disturbed? And I said, well, you try to have fun with them. You try to bring out humor. We went on a lot of field trips.
I took them out into the world because their parents, a lot of times, did not take them out into the world.
And we went to Disneyland, even.
[00:04:38] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:04:39] Speaker A: I had one to one help. I got one to one help, plus my aid, plus me.
And people just bent over backwards for us. We had a free trip on out to Catalina island. On the way down, I said to them they needed to be at the airport.
I think it was 630 or five or, because you said, I can't hold the plane for you, you know, we'll go with or without you. And every kid was there on time.
[00:05:14] Speaker C: I love that you were experiential. Long before you met Virginia, you lived and worked in experiential ways.
[00:05:23] Speaker A: I did. I believe that when you teach three to five year olds, which I taught, that were orthopedically handicapped, you still. I used field trips once a week.
We did preparation for the field trips, if I could.
And kids learn better when they're having fun.
[00:05:46] Speaker C: So do adults.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: It is a teaching experience.
[00:05:50] Speaker C: Well, I think that's a beautiful part of your story. And for the years that I've known you already, Diana, I've just been so impressed about how engaged you've always been, but also the spirit in which you still bring to meetings and connections with others.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: Thank you. I so believe in what Virginia stands for and the way she teaches. Can I tell you, when I first.
[00:06:17] Speaker C: Saw her, I would love to hear that story.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: Well, a friend of mine brought me the book people making, I think it was, of Virginia, and she gave it to me, and she said, I think you'll like this. And I looked at it, and I thought, no, this is too simplistic.
And it didn't fit for me. And then along came a brochure about a week later. I was in the, on the way. I can remember being at the waste basket and throwing things, throwing my junk mail in the wastebasket. And I come out, she was giving a lecture. She was giving a lecture in Palo Alto. I live near San Francisco, and so I, I was 20 minutes from Palo Alto, and it was very reasonably priced, and I thought, why not go check her out?
She was giving an all day workshop at an old theater. I remember thinking, I'm going to sit in the front row, so I won't go to sleep. And she lectures, and I not only did not go to sleep, but by noon I had.
I was sold on her and her methods and bringing people up on stage and putting them in stances, as she does often does.
And she was just so engaging that I was fascinated. I bought one of every of her books, and I signed up for a month long training in Presto Butte, Colorado.
And I've never been so agreeable. I mean, everything she said, I thought, that'll work. She doesn't do talk therapy. She does action.
[00:08:06] Speaker C: Very, very engaging, isn't she?
[00:08:09] Speaker A: Very engaging.
[00:08:11] Speaker C: You know, you mentioned something people making. I've heard a lot of people say the similar thing when they first see it, or any, really, any of her theory. They think it's so simple and almost too simplistic. But as they learn more about what she does, they realize how deep it is.
[00:08:31] Speaker A: Very deep. And I decided to go back and get my math.
They were giving a course to become an administrator, and there were two other gals I had met. We decided to go ahead and get our administrative credentials. And I think I had gone to one meeting and I thought, this is not for me. I'm not an administrator.
I want hands on. I want kids.
I want to work with kids. And I went over to the psych department and I said, what would it take to be able to be a therapist? And it didn't take that much. They even accepted my years old course in statistics. So that's when I became a therapist.
It was 20 years after I had been teaching.
[00:09:21] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:09:22] Speaker A: And so then I taught half time, I went to school half time and made it work that way.
[00:09:30] Speaker C: You must have been pretty inspired to make a change that big in your life and go back and become a therapist, right?
[00:09:38] Speaker A: I've had people come up to me. I remember this one gal said, when I get older, I want to be just like you, you know? Or I had a family, a couple that were attorneys in San Francisco, and they were, they couldn't agree on whether to have a child or not have a child.
They didn't have any children, and I don't know what I did because I don't remember trying to convince them one way or another, but I used a tear, and they decided to have another child. In fact, they had two more.
[00:10:17] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:10:18] Speaker A: She went through in vitro, and she credits me with her having, guiding her.
[00:10:24] Speaker C: To her own wisdom, and I've had.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: Many more than that. And it's all about Virginia.
Well, the way I feel about her theory and her methods is that if you become more fully human, if you know what congruency is and you understand what becoming more fully human means, then you can use any method, any theory will work, as long as you become that person.
And it's changed my life. I don't get angry, for instance, with children. Say a kid hits another kid, you don't go punish the kid that hit. You go take care of and give lots of praise to the kid that was hit. Give him a tree that pays special attention. In other words, you ignore. You don't give either good or bad attention to the kid that did the hitting. I totally ignore him. You go to the kid that was hit and give them the attention, and pretty soon, the kid that was hitting thinks, hey, this isn't getting me anywhere. You know, I need to change.
[00:11:46] Speaker C: Diana, what I know of you also is you weren't just a student of Virginia. You also became a close friend and confidant to Virginia over the time that you've known her.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: Yes. Since I lived near her. Her home was in Menlo park, which is about 15 minutes from me.
I said, I called her secretary, and I said, please send me a calendar so I can go to more of her, meeting her, the things she does.
She does not have a calendar.
But what you do, if you really want more, is offered. You might offer to drive her, because she does not like to drive at night.
And so I said, I'm on board. Just tell me when, where. I'm a teacher, and anytime I have, on weekends or summers or after school, I'll take her. And so I became like a. Like her private driver.
And then at one of the meetings, I went to board meeting. Avanta. I say, it used to be Avanta. It's sincere, global.
At one of the meetings, her secretary said she did not want to go to Colorado, as she was scheduled to do, to help Virginia up in crested Butte. And so I heard that, and afterwards, I said to Virginia, you know, I'll do that. I have the summer off, and I'll be glad to do that. And she said, I'll call you tonight. She called me that night. She said, okay, I'll pay for your flight and you can stay with me.
And so I became her, like an assistant. What she needed, I did. I didn't argue with it.
If I could, I would do it.
And so for the whole summer, I was at her beck and call.
And it's interesting because I went to the gal that she had before, and I said, do you have any hints on how to make this work, what you did? She said, I only have one thing to say that you should do, and that's self care, which Virginia was big on teaching.
So my self care was that I got up and took a walk between six and seven every morning by myself. I didn't want any walk and talk. I just wanted to walk and look at the beautiful scenery and go by the horses.
And I did that every morning for an hour. And I was able to hang in there at a very fast paced lot.
[00:15:12] Speaker C: Yeah, it must have been very fast paced back then.
[00:15:14] Speaker A: Well, it wasn't. She always had a waiting list. She had 90 people she'd bring along, sick people to help her in the small groups because she taught in the morning up in Colorado, say, from nine to twelve. And then after lunch, we went to groups of 30, 30, 30 each.
And we had the licensed therapist to help us that had trained under Virginia. So I. Yes, I.
Then she had hired me for the next year. This was the year she got sick.
And I went up there and I unpacked all her stuff, and it was all ready for her. And she was flying in that night, and she had pains. And of course, she died of pancreatic cancer.
[00:16:20] Speaker C: Yeah. You were beside her. And actually, you took her to the hospital, didn't you?
[00:16:24] Speaker A: I lived with her in the same condo, and I did whatever she wanted or needed. And I drove this green truck that the resort loaned to us.
And it was such a different life. We left the keys in the car all the time so that people, if they needed it, he got in, they drove it, and nobody locked their doors at night.
Different situation.
[00:17:00] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: I was very close to her.
[00:17:04] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, I listened to an interview that Gene McClendon had with you, and one of the things that was impressive that you talked about in that interview was, yes, you were a big helper for the trainings and a personal assistant, making sure things happened for the profession, for her professional work. But it was really the weekends in which you really helped her do good self care. You helped her enjoy herself outside of the work that she did.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I did.
I think I talked about the one time she called me and she said, what are you doing this weekend?
What are you doing Saturday?
I said, I don't have any plans. And she said, well, I have 250 cent coupons to go to the home show up in San Mateo, and I'll share them with you if you drive.
And I said, of course I'll drive. And so we went to the home show, and I got my $0.50 off with her coupon, and we got in there, and she just. She was fascinated, I guess. She. In addition to her massive calendar, which was full, in addition to that, she was able to can fruits and did all kinds of homemaking things. So she was real delighted to be at the home show.
[00:18:52] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:18:52] Speaker A: In fact, I lost her because I was looking at something I was interested in, and she was behind the curtain talking with somebody, and she wasn't a bit concerned about being lost.
I thought, okay, my duty today is to keep track of her.
She was just so down to earth.
We would walk every single night in crested Butte. After the sessions were over, we took a walk up the county road, and it was a beautiful walk. And people. People gave us our space.
They didn't run up, and, like they did during the day, left us alone. And she just became Virginia. She was just a friend.
[00:19:52] Speaker C: That's great. You know, one of the other things that I heard in that interview you gave gave me another question.
I had been talking to Sandy Novak about the times in Christo Butte. You know, of course, she loves to tell some of those stories, and I love hearing them. And she would tell me that one of the things that Virginia would do is that she would actually bake a rhubarb pie and give it to some of the people that, uh, were helping her. But I heard you say that she didn't actually bake rhubarb pie. Is that true?
[00:20:29] Speaker A: Well, it's true and not true. She did not bake rhubarb. The rhubarb at Christa Butte. When she was home. She. She cooked rhubarb pie. She did pick the rhubarb up there.
And this one, I think what Sandy was talking about is this one time, Virginia said to me, I think you should make a double date for us, and we'll go out jeeping in the jeep.
And she said, you invite. Is the owner of the inn there? Because you invite him. Of course. It was his jeep, probably, yeah.
And his assistant and she said.
And so she was going to go with him. I have pictures of this trip because it was great. She got so lost in just the trip. She became just Virginia enjoying Colorado mountains.
And then we went and we picked Robin.
I have a picture of her picking up some rocks in the creek. So. Yes.
[00:21:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I love some of the pictures that you have because it shows such special times.
One of the ones that stood out to me was this one right here that just shows Virginia in the jeep that you're probably talking about.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: That's right. That was Alan Cox.
[00:22:09] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:22:10] Speaker A: Corner of the end. Yeah.
[00:22:13] Speaker C: I was telling you just recently that I was over at Johnny Faulkner's place. You know, he runs the Satir archives, and you had donated boxes and boxes of items from back in your time with satir. And it was such a joy to sit there with everybody that was there and look through the pictures and hear people talk about the stories. And so you brought a lot of richness to that trip that we had going and visiting the archives.
[00:22:46] Speaker A: It's embarrassing to me because we did this. He was flying home or. No, no, he drove home because he had to drive the books and the bookcases I donated. I had a whole wall of books. And I thought, you know, he just started being an arch harvest, and he probably didn't have much to start with, and he could at least start with my conglomeration of books.
And I kept one of each of satirists, which I had behind me.
But it's embarrassing because I didn't have time to sort out the personal stuff, so. I can imagine.
But that would bring up memories of the people that you had there.
[00:23:45] Speaker C: There were beautiful memories, and there was a lot of. There's a few of us that got to be on that trip, and it was just a blessing. And I know that we even reached out and called you and talked to you on the phone, and that was just wonderful for you just to be a part of that day with us.
[00:24:00] Speaker A: It was part of what great for me is it brought back memories.
[00:24:06] Speaker C: Well, one of the things I'd like to do now, I know that there's plenty of other stories that you could probably share, and you're welcome to if you'd like to, but I know that because of the time that you've spent with Virginia, but also in your own career and just the amazing things that you've been able to do, I would love for you just to speak some wisdom, things that you've learned through life that you would like the listeners to know.
[00:24:33] Speaker A: One person said to me, well, you thought that way anyway, before you met Virginia, she didn't teach you anything. I said, well, she, I learned that my thinking was right on, you know, that.
And she, she was able to express it where I didn't. I just did it. My belief is that when you study satir and when you believe in what she does and you practice it in your everyday life, not just your personal or professional life, but your everyday life, if you become more fully human, so to speak, then you can use any method and it'll be enhanced, and it'll be, that's what I do or did because I'm retired now, obviously. I'm 92. Yeah, soon to be 93.
And so my private practice was in my home. I had a lot of families. I remember this one case that was so apparent. Somebody said, well, how can you be so patient with autism syndrome?
And we had just discovered it, and it was just people weren't quite sure how to label kids and who was autistic and who was just behavior disordered.
So that was just going on.
But it was a difficult group. But when you ignored some of the acting out behavior and you just had fun with them, and I had some autistic savant, you'd say the kids that are very, have islands of brightness. They have areas.
And it's so interesting. I have this one very, very tall kid who was 14, and they sent him to a junior high school. He was terrible.
His language and everything became worse in his acting out. So instead of putting him down in a younger class, they, she said, will you take him? They asked me if I'd take him, and I said, sure.
And he was doing third. He was very bright, but he was doing third grade math.
And so I got him a tutor at the high school in Millbrook, cappuccino high school.
I got him a tutor, and I said, let him use any device for multiplying.
You know, don't insist that he practices multiplication tables. He's never going to use him.
Well, she got him from third grade math to 10th grade math that year. He didn't need to go through what the other kids go through to learn, you know, the other thing I thought was that I respected these kids. I trusted them.
And when we went to Disneyland, somebody said, what if they act out? And I said, if they act out between now and then, what do the kids ask me?
What if something were bad, you know?
And I said, unless you do something that I can't trust you, then you're going to go.
[00:28:39] Speaker C: One of the things that I love that you're talking about is also something that satir often taught is people cope. The way that they cope is more wholesome when they have high self esteem. And what you're saying is whenever children like the example of two children getting into a fight, the aggressor is certainly acting out poorly. They're coping poorly with whatever's going on, but in the process, they devalued another human being by hitting them. And what you're saying is, by focusing on that child and letting them know how valuable they are, it can actually help that child because they don't lose value because of being victimized.
And for the child who was the aggressor, you're not putting them down or making them feel worse about themselves, but you're available to them to love them also.
And what you were telling some of your kids about Disneyland, it's like you're going, I value you. I respect you, I trust you. If you violate that, you can choose a behavior that violates the trust. But unless that happens, you're valuable, and I want you to have this valuable experience.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: And it was valuable. It was an incredible trip, and people donated money so that the trip was paid for. Kids had to bring in $10. I didn't care. And we kept track of it publicly because I knew, I said, I don't care how you get it.
You work for it or your parents give it to you, whatever, just that you owe, and it's going to be on the board. I made them responsible for bringing in their $10 and then having one to one help. So I had enough young people to help the boys, including one dad who had never been on a trip before. So I had one to one with the boys, and I had, let's see, I had two female volunteers who volunteered in my classroom all the time. They got to go, so there were girls they could dance with. So we just had a great time.
[00:31:03] Speaker C: That's excellent. I love that story.
Well, before we leave, there's one more question that I have.
The question is really tapping into that friendship you have with Virginia. Is there a story, a special story that maybe you've told before or maybe you've not told anybody before, but just a really special story that you carry with you about your time with Virginia?
[00:31:31] Speaker A: Well, you had said you might ask me that question, and I told a lot of people most of the stories about her, but the one that maybe nobody heard, and it was just. It was that she was doing. She was one of the keynote speakers for the international conference for Therapist or Psychology, I forget, but it was in Prague, in Europe, and I went to it. I went over there, and, of course, I signed up for anything she gave at the first meeting.
All the big family therapists of the world were there. So it was a very prominent conference, and I got there early to hear every speaker.
And about the fifth speaker was Virginia.
And the speakers would get up on the podium, high above the audience and with their notes and very dressed, very properly, suits and everything.
And then Virginia was the only woman of all the speakers.
And she got up there, and I used to say she did this on purpose, but she took the microphone. She undid the microphone. I've seen her do it many times since then, but this is the first time. And then she tripped over the wires.
And, I mean, she didn't fall or anything. She just. What she did was she became not the speaker looking down on it, but she walked down into the audience with a handheld microphone, and she talked to people, and she had people demonstrate, I think, the stance.
And people loved her. You could tell, you know, they put down their pens and just listened and participated.
And she was right on their level, which was interesting, because I've often quoted her saying, we, as human beings, we're equal in value.
We may be different in height and being wealth and the way our noses are shaped.
We're different in a lot of ways, how much money we have, but we're all equal in value. And I love that.
[00:34:33] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:34:34] Speaker A: And that's what she was doing, I think, is just becoming a human being.
[00:34:41] Speaker C: Yeah. I love. I love hearing the stories because it. It really shows that she lived out what she believed.
I love hearing the stories because I can see how it impacted people.
But I loved talking to her friends and the people who trained with her, because I find that you have the same character. You live out what you believe.
You believe so deeply that every human has value.
You treat people with respect. So the same spirit that people talk about. Virginia, I see in the people who were her friends, who worked beside her and Diana, I just want to say it is truly an honor to interview you, to talk to you, to hear your stories, and to really get to know you as a friend.
[00:35:34] Speaker A: Thank you. Happy little things about you.
[00:35:41] Speaker B: As we conclude this episode of the Virginia Satir podcast, I want to leave you with a reminder that the journey of self discovery and transformation is ongoing.
Virginia satir's wisdom continues to inspire us to nurture healthier relationships. Relationships foster open communication, and embrace personal growth. Remember, you hold the power to create positive change in your life and the lives of those around you.
[00:36:06] Speaker C: Well, that's it for today's episode.
[00:36:08] Speaker B: See you next week. Thanks for listening to the Virginia City podcast. Be sure to, like, subscribe and give us a review wherever you listen to the podcast and share this with a friend. Also, for more information on Virginia City here you can go to satirglobal.com or liveconnectedtherapy.com. until next time, be kind to yourself and to others. You are a miracle.
