Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: All your experiences, good and bad, shaped who you are today. Take time to look at your whole story, not just now.
Look at the past.
Look at the hard times.
Be open to new possibilities.
Let your light shine.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: You are listening to exploring Satir's legacy, the Virginia Satir podcast. I am your host, Michael Argumanes Hardin, and together we will embark on the journey of self discovery, empowerment, and meaningful connection.
Let's dive in. Today I have the honor of talking with Doctor Mary Jo Bullbrook. Doctor Bullbrook is a renowned leader in the field of holistic nursing and energy healing. With a wealth of experience in integrating traditional and alternative approaches to healthcare.
She has a distinguished 51 plus year career as a university professor and clinical specialist in psychiatric mental health nursing.
Doctor Bullbrook assisted in the development of world renowned family therapist Virginia Satir's teaching organization, the Avanta Network, now called the Virginia Satir Global Network.
Drawing on their twelve years together, elements of Virginia's teaching and philosophy were integrated with Doctor Bullbrook's holistic nursing theory, healing from within and without.
[00:01:34] Speaker C: Mary Jo, I am so excited to be able to have this conversation with you.
[00:01:38] Speaker A: Well, thank you. It's my pleasure to be here. And I've been so looking forward to the expansion and moving Satir's work forward worldwide in assisting others who are also working to achieve that goal because she has so many powerful things to share with us that is greatly needed at this time.
[00:02:05] Speaker C: Absolutely. I think our world needs the message that the Satir model can give.
[00:02:10] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:02:12] Speaker C: You know, Mary Jo, I'd like to thank you. First, you are. When I was really wanting to find out more about Virginia Satir, I went and I started searching podcasts and YouTube videos, and I found a podcast interview where somebody interviewed you. And I just thought it was the best interview. And I just thought, one of these days, I would like to interview Mary Jo.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Well, congratulations. It's here.
[00:02:40] Speaker C: It was so great to hear your story and how you met Virginia and some of the work. And what I love about your story also is there's some spiritual connections that were made that, you know, that you were just drawn. You're drawn to her, you're drawn to each other. The work that you had, it was as if there was a greater plan out there.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: Oh, yes, that is absolutely true. And that is a hallmark of how I've led my life throughout, because it's following the spiritual guidance. And although originally it came from a church orientation that I was raised in from my parents, my family, and that's what I followed. And when I became a psychotherapist, I started saying, oh, there are a whole bunch of different good guides out there.
And it's not just the religious orientation or the spiritual orientation I was raised in. And as a psychiatric mental health nurse, my goal is to help each person feel validated and heard and standing on their own beliefs. So that's what influenced and shaped my life tremendously.
[00:04:04] Speaker C: Yeah. And actually, that's some of the things that you just mentioned, is what drew me to Virginia satir in the first place. I've been a christian man for. For most of my life, and the idea that we're supposed to love one another and that all people are children of God really resonated with me. We don't. Not everybody, even within religious groups, treats people like they are miracles, but we all are manifestations of the divine. And I love the idea that it's so respectful of everyone.
[00:04:37] Speaker A: That's absolutely true. And that is my position, and that is my position that I establish throughout various aspects of my career path. Over the 50 years, I've been an active leader in multiple countries, multiple organizations, dealing with the orientation of where I was coming from. And as I mentioned now, even at the university, Akamai University, where I'm currently president. And that is something I never really would have strive for personally, because it isn't my intention.
My intention is just being myself and sharing what I know, where I am at a point in time, what I'm being asked to do and doing that. And so that has been consistent for me. And really the model. So what I'm describing as a child growing up in my family, I was, and I'm hearing the word indoctrinated, and I don't mean that disrespectfully. I think the word more appropriate is raised. Raised to be and act a certain way that fit the values of the family that I was in. And it was a very loving, loving family. And. But the.
I believe, and that's one of the things that I really learned and captured from Virginia, it is our family experience that really shapes who we are and who we become.
And it's tied into not only. Well, it's every aspect of our life, physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual. Not religious, spiritual, a broader context. And it's dealing with phenomena not only in the here and now, but. And this is where sometimes when I start saying things like this before life and after death, people get kind of, oh, my goodness, where's she going with that? And one of the things that totally shaped my career aspect is the association with the International association of Near Death Studies that has been doing research on near death experiences for, I don't know, I think it's 45 years now. And so I've been actively involved in that organization.
And that helped me to stand up to the plate, to speak out and speak out.
Speak up and speak out with my experiences and let go of being afraid and let go of. It's just a box that you live in and operate from and know that there's a bigger context in absolutely every one of our lives that shape, shapes our destiny, and we have charge of it. We have charge of what shapes our destiny.
[00:07:58] Speaker C: You know, very much like you, I grew up in a family that taught me how to see things a certain way and how to experience things a certain way.
But the first time, I really was challenged to start saying, okay, wait a second, what is real? I worked 15 years with a hospice, and I can't tell you how often I heard of stories around death, around spirituality that didn't fit with what I would hear on Sunday morning at church. However, it happened so frequently that I thought, you know what? I am just going to sit back and learn from the people that I'm taking care of. I'm going to learn from people who are experiencing these things and just be curious. And it was. There was so many stories in which families were so blessed by their experiences that I certainly grew to honor all those stories, even if I didn't fully understand them.
[00:08:54] Speaker A: Oh, I love what you're saying. I absolutely love what you're saying. And hearing your story, I hadn't realized that you worked with hospice, because I did as well in 1970, when I helped start the hospice of Salt Lake City. And that was through two of my. Well, one of my co professors at the University of Utah, who was a specialist in working with children, she's the one who had started to create a hospice because she worked with children and families and issues associated to that. And she approached me and she said, we've been working on starting a hospice here in Salt Lake City, and I'm wondering if you would. I know you're really busy. That's kind of a line people have said all my life. I know you're really busy, but we could sure use your help. I said, okay, sure, let me look into that. So anyway, the word got out that we were going to start a hospice. And before it was actually how we were going to do what we're going to do, we started getting phone calls. So I said to my other two colleagues, and we had a triad who started this, which is interesting, since that's what Virginia really advocates, working with the triad to start a new thing. And what we did is I said, let's go talk to the people we are going to serve, figure out how to do it. And that's what we did. And I'll never forget the three of us. The three who went was myself and my colleague. Her name was Kathleen.
I can't pull out her last name at this point. And a gentleman who was an airplane pilot, so he was a layperson who was going to help us. So we walked into the family, and the person who was passing was an elderly man and his wife was there and daughter was there and grandchildren. And so when we walked in and introduced ourselves, one of the grandchildren, small child, I don't remember how old, maybe five or six, went and started to crawl up on the lap of their grandfather. And the mother came and quickly took him away and said, oh, don't disturb grandpa now, etcetera. And I kept thinking, I think I would like, if I was dying to have my grandchild on my lap instead of talking to these people who I don't even know. That's what I was thinking. So it really hit me that we need to look at how to set the stage for what the family dynamics are and what it was.
The mother wasn't trying to do harm to the father. She was just acting, in her mind, the best interest because maybe crawling on its lap would hurt him. So that helped set the tone for me, what you said, which is paying attention to the people we serve and how to deal with that. And the other thing I learned based on what you are saying, and this came specifically from being in Utah, the Utah profession, religious orientation, is primarily Mormon.
And my orientation was catholic, roman catholic church. And so when I moved from Cincinnati, Ohio, where I grew up, to then Texas, and when I went to Texas, and this is how I would call them, the good guys, the good guys were the Baptists in Texas. And then I go, well, that's interesting. As a psychiatric nurse, I need to learn more about the baptist orientation. Then I went to Utah, I go, oh, the good guys are now the Mormons. And I say that respectfully, and I use the word good guys, bad guys, because sometimes that is what it's taught.
Our orientation is what you have to believe, and that simply is not true. It's like what you're saying. We are all one in need to be treated equally.
And at the time, it was actually in Texas when I was working on my doctorate degree, my clinical professor said, you ought to study the work of Virginia satir. I said, okay, tell me, who is she? And at the time, what I had studied in my master's degree in looking at how to serve through as a psychiatric mental health nurse, is we had psychoanalytic approach is what was predominantly pharmacology oriented to help people to deal with their situation from being, I want to say, drugged, and I don't quite mean it as medicated.
Thank you. Medicated.
But in dealing with it. So when I began to look at things in a different perspective, it's like, wow, we really need to change the face of psychiatry and how we approach mental health care. And I will never forget when Virginia walked on the stage. It was in the pediatric hospital in Fort Worth, Texas, where I was living. And she started working with. We weren't told what the diagnosis was or who was a patient, and I started getting irritated. And that's one of my shortcomings, is I can have my buttons pushed quickly when I think something is perhaps not the way it should be. And I kept thinking, we're taught as a psychiatric nurse to operate from the diagnosis, and Virginia is not sharing the diagnosis. I don't know who the patient is. I don't know who I should be focused on treating.
Oh, my goodness. There it was, the splash in the face right away when she was sharing her expertise by demonstrating it. It wasn't an intellectual, you have to fit in this box approach. It was meeting the person, person to person, heart to heart, exactly where they are and connecting. So that really shaped it. And it was an elderly couple she visited first. And at the time, I thought, well, that's interesting.
And she, which she always does, she brought the two, the elderly couple, face to face. And I'll never forget, the wife was sitting there kind of with a stoic face, and he was across from her, and Virginia said, what would you like to say to your wife? And I thought, well, this is going to be interesting, what he's going to say. So he thought for her, it seemed like a long time, but it probably was only a minute or two. And he looked at her, and he leaned forward, and he said, honey, I love you. And I was absolutely shocked, because it didn't seem to me that's what somebody would say publicly on a stage in front of a huge audience of people, and he's sharing his personal feeling.
So that clicked in my head. Oh, my goodness. This is something different than how you approach caring for people.
The next couple or the next situation that she interviewed was a young family, a husband and wife, and I think they either had two or three small children. Again, they were on the stage. What I remember most, again, my saying, who is a patient? Because I wanted to be sure I could focus on how and where the treatment needed to be. Again, she didn't do it, but what she did do, I thought, was really very important.
She came to the edge of the stage, and she said to the audience, I need your help. Will you watch the children if they get too close to the edge of the stage? Will you help me so that they don't fall off the stage? Because I may be engaged with the couple and not notice it. So she looked to the audience for acknowledgment.
They would take care of the safety of the children. I go, oh, that's another thing I never thought of.
And so it's like I was bombarded with data that didn't fit my academic training, that I did appreciate and honor, but it was something new.
But the piece I want to tell you about that is most important to my heart is when she came out on the stage, I heard a voice. The voice said, you are going to be very involved in Virginia Satir's life if you have been sent to help her to deal with the stories in her life.
So after the conference, or, I mean, her session there, I shared that with my major professor, who was a social worker, and he was like a colleague of mine, but he was my clinical professor, and he was a friend. I said, isn't that the most grandiose thing you ever heard? And he and I laughed and laughed and laughed.
And I thought, I want to follow up with what Virginia does. And so she was teaching in Dallas, Texas, at the Carl Jung society. I think it was the same time, but I'm not sure. But I decided I definitely would go there. And that's then how I got involved with Carl Jung.
And I'll never forget again, I'm watching if she's having the conversation, how, what her teaching is like, hearing her stories, because she was a contemporary of Carl Jung, Carl Rogers, and transsexual analysis, Eric Byrne. And so I was being introduced to a broader context of how to deal with psychiatric situation other than medication, in other than psychodynamic orientation.
So, but this is the next story that wove my experience with Virginia. I was in the middle of starting to write a book called development of therapeutic skills, and I thought, wouldn't that be cool if Virginia would write in my book? And I thought, oh, you know, really well, ask her maybe she will. So I'll never forget, we were sitting next to each other at lunch. She was with her friends, and I was with my friends, and I turned and looked at her. She caught my eye. She looked at me. I said, virginia, I have a question I'd like to ask you. So I described to her that I was working on a book, and I wondered if she wanted to contribute to it.
She said, well, tell me about your book. So I told her, I'm speaking about developing therapeutic skills, and I will be working with some of my other colleagues and people I know to write a chapter. And she said, well, that sounds good. Yeah, I'd be happy to do it. Well, I was astounded.
I was astounded. She said, yes.
So she left. And I'm not real sure exactly when it passed. Like maybe a year or so passed, and I hadn't heard from her. I heard from the other people, and I was putting the book together, and I go, okay, if I'm. I'm. I need to follow up with Virginia. So I called and Lois, I can't think of her last name was her secretary.
I called her and she answered the phone, and I said, I'm calling to see Virginia. I met her in Fort Worth, Texas, and Dallas, Texas. And she agreed to do a chapter of my book.
And Lois said, oh, I'm sorry, miss Jo. Virginia makes promises, and she's so busy, and sometimes she can't do everything agrees to do. No offense, but I said, but I know she's going to do it. Oh, well, I understand. I know you have your hopes up, but she doesn't have time to do it.
So I pause. I said, well, I'm coming to San Francisco.
How about if I interview her?
Oh, well, what are you coming to San Francisco for? Well, I'm going to.
Doctor Effie Chao is launching her east west Academy of Healing Arts, and she invited Dolores Krieger, who is the developer of therapeutic touch, and she's going to be talking about her research.
Does Virginia know you're interested in those kinds of things? Said no.
Oh, well, let me go talk to her. So she did, and she came back to me and she said, virginia would love to meet with you. So the connection was hearing the voice, the spiritual alignment, and the direction I was given in energy therapies, all three of those pieces, all lined up, and it occurred.
[00:24:29] Speaker C: I love that story, and I love that it also speaks to something I know about Virginia Satir, which is she was always growing. She was always investing herself in learning new things. And because of that, she was updating her model all the time.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: Yes, she was. Yes, she was. And what was interesting, I said after the interview that I did, and I used what she gave me, and it did become a chapter in my book. And that was published by little, Brown a long time ago.
I don't remember the exact date. And so I said to Virginia, I'd really like to stay connected. And so she said, well, I get together a group of people usually once a year, and I call them the beautiful people. And we're meeting, I think it wasn't Mexico then, and I'd love to have you come. I said, great, I'll come. And I did. So that was how I got connected to the beautiful people that today is called I learn.
And so we met, and there was a group she pulled together to be kind of a leadership team of people. And I'm trying, I can see their pictures, whether I can call their name. Who did the publishing of her books in the beginning? A husband and wife team.
[00:26:04] Speaker C: They are. I think it starts with an S.
Spitzler.
[00:26:09] Speaker A: No, no.
Anyway, yes, it does start with an S. And so I knew them, the two of them, and, or, I mean, I met them, and the other person was, there were a number of people, and I'm not prepared to quickly pull out their names, so I won't do that. But we started hanging out together when we met, connected to Ilearn, and we met for three years and it didn't go any further. Virginia wanted to do her university for becoming more human. And I kept thinking, I don't understand what a university for becoming for more fully human means or how that fits. So I just kind of harked it because I couldn't figure it out. None of the universities I knew anything about seemed to fit what she was saying.
But anyway, so we were meeting for three years, and I said to her, you know, Virginia, I think it's time, instead of just talking about doing something, we ought to do something. And I said, I'll tell you what. I'm at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City, and I would be very happy to invite you to come there. And we can, I'll help set up the administrative structure so that you can launch your teaching network there and how you want to do it. Would you like to do that? And she said, well, yeah, thank you. And that's what we did. And so there were a group of us who were the leadership team, quote unquote. It was originally called Avanta Network. And then she was not able to continue with the term Avanta, because some other organization had that name as well. So that's then when it eventually began to shift into a new name.
[00:28:14] Speaker C: It's a tier global network.
[00:28:16] Speaker A: Yes. And then Virginia, when we work together, and I have to say this, on my birthday, April 25, whatever year it was, I wrote out a budget to pull this off, and it was for $125,000. So I sent that budget to the satir group of us who were planning things. And not only did we make that, but we grossed 25,000 at the end. And Virginia said, me, wow, I really didn't quite expect that to happen, and I'm very pleased. And so one of the things I did is I would get ideas and visions how to do things. Like, when she came, we did 19 workshops throughout Salt Lake City in talking to different groups and populations throughout the whole state, and it served as the feeder into what we were doing in Park City, Utah. And it was Park City, Utah, that the Triad model was implemented. And I wanted to make sure who she invited as leaders had good representation, male and female, in different countries, and that's what we did.
But what was interesting in the time of my hanging out with Virginia, quote, unquote, she and I would talk about our private experiences with a broader context than the classical way of connecting with people. She would see visions.
She would have experienced it. She would feel things energetically. And there wasn't a good fit vocabulary for that process, because connecting with people was a no no at that time. It was like, you don't touch. It was really. There was a movement starting, don't touch your patients, don't talk about religion, et cetera, et cetera. So that's counter to what life is all about.
Touch, family, connection, is important.
[00:31:07] Speaker C: It's one of those things that makes me respect you also, even more in that you didn't just invest yourself in something back then with Virginia, and then when she died, it was over. You've continued to evolve and grow yourself and try to make the helping profession even more user friendly for clients to come in and feel comfortable.
I love that even now, you are so invested in the work that you're doing. You even have some new things coming up in April.
Tell the listeners some of the things that you're actively engaged in, just so they know what you're doing.
[00:31:46] Speaker A: Oh, thank you. I appreciate. Yeah, that. Yes. I want to give just a little bit of background history that then addresses the point that you made, which is, I moved in the background of the global satir network because the energy therapies that had become my focus at the time. I was studying all kinds of things in helping to promote healing touch internationally, energy psychology internationally. My own training program called transform your life through energy medicine. So I was busy teaching this worldwide alongside my nursing professorship position.
But what happened is when John Banman did honoring Virginia for the Satir Pacific group and for her hundredth birthday party, that I was my reentrance into the Satir network. And it was through Mary Leslie who contacted me, and she said she was focusing on Virginia spirituality, and she was looking for additional people to connect with who knew something about Virginia and spirituality. And she said, three people told me I needed to connect with you, Mary Jo. And that's what she did. And when she sent me the email or I don't remember if it was a phone call, I started looking into the celebration. And that very day, I booked a ticket to go. I said, I am going to be there. I want to celebrate her birthday. And then Mary wrote me, I think, either the next day or the day after, and said, I'm going to be doing a presentation. Would you like to join me? Are you interested in coming? And I laughed, and I wrote her back and I said, I already had booked a ticket to come. And so that's how Mary and I started our connection. So again, I see that as a constant reminder of Virginia orchestrating, quote, unquote, from the other side, a continuing of what my connection was with her in helping me to reconnect back to her network, who is taking the responsibility for moving her work forward.
What I was doing was more, and this was years ago, that was, I think the conference was 2016 or 17, not real sure exactly, but my focus was very much on the energy therapies and, of course, psychiatric mental health. I used the body of knowledge that I had, but the focus was more the energy therapies.
And then I decided when I started coming, and I think it was the Satir global that I came to first and seeing what they were doing, and I thought, man, I've got to hang out here. And I'm not real sure that I remember exactly how I got reconnected with ilearn, but that happened as well. So anyway, back to in April, what.
As I mentioned earlier, I never wanted to be a president, but our university president had become sick. And Akamai University was started in 2022 in Hawaii. And when the president became sick, he needed to move.
He needed somebody else to take it over. And I knew something was wrong. My organization, my private organization called Energy Medicine Partnership was an affiliate of Akamai University, and that occurred as I was on the board of directors, directors of the association of Comprehensive Energy Psychology. They were going to start a PhD in energy psychology.
So when I receive a notice as a board member from ASEP Energy psychology group, I said, oh, and I had left academia for a while and focused on my private business. And what I said is, I think I need to check this out. And when I sent an email that to Alkamai university, I'm interested in working with you, I turned to the gentleman I was working with and I said, I've just changed the course of my life. I could feel it. I could feel energetically, my life would change. Anyway, the man who started the PhD program said, you have a better academic background than I do. I'm going to invite you to take it over and I'll just work with you. And so that's what happened back to when I called the president of the university, and I had quite a few students who were doing their master and doctoral work and some bachelor's. And we're an online university, so it's not the usual concept and concept. It's a usual academic concept, but not the usual. You have a physical plan. So anyway, I said to him, I know something's wrong. What can I do to help you? He said, yes, it is, and I will get back with you. And I think it was two weeks later he called me and said, the board voted you in, his president, will you accept? And I go, no.
And I said, okay, let me meditate, and I will get back with you. And then I thought, I have to do it. I have so many students who are in process with their degrees. There's no way I'm going to abandon them. You know, I want to make. I'll still be doing what I need to do with them, and I probably could do it better and helping with this transition. So that's how it happened. But anyway, as you can see, then you're hearing. You're hearing the inner relationship between Akamai University, Virginia Satir energy medicine Partnerships, the Center for becoming more fully Human and Global Healing alliance. That was doctor Eppie Chow. And what was curious, doctor Effie Chow, who is a registered nurse and a psychiatric nurse and an acupuncturist and an Asian born in the United States, but from asian family.
She was the one. Her business was East West Academy of Healing Arts, which is how I met Virginia Satir, which is then how. I mean, how I met her to do the chapter in my book and got involved to help start up onto that work.
[00:39:19] Speaker C: So many connections.
[00:39:21] Speaker A: It is spiritually led. It is not me intellectually leading it, nor Virginia intellectually leading it, or effy. And so anyway, I did with Effie what I did with Virginia. I helped her to launch the Global Healing alliance. Three. There were three of us. Again, another try it. Doctor Effy Chow, myself, and Rose Hong, who actually works at the federal government in Washington, DC. She is also asian and has a global dragon tv. So she, the three of us worked in, launched in. I forget how many years they're into now of the global healing alliance. And then when Effie died in 2023, and I was surprised that she was able to make it to the end, that was our last. But I want to tell you is I had invited Steve Buckbee to be one of the speakers. And so he spoke there and he and I talked about Virginia together.
And it was shortly after that that he recommended I become energy medicine partnerships, becomes an affiliate with global satir network. So again, you can see it's woven together. But what I want to comment about is this April, Congress is going to be the 20, April to April 28, it's going to be three days each. Each event, each organization are going to be three days both in person here in Durham, North Carolina, will spend some time at the, where I am. That is the headquarters for Akamai University, my own business, energy medicine partnerships and Global Healing alliance, because I manage all three of them.
Yes. And I need help.
So anyway, that's going to be in April in. We have on our website all three websites, Akamai University website, energy medicine partnerships website in the Global Healing alliance. What is going to be done individually with their emphasis and then all three. What isn't out there yet that I'm actively working on is the commitment of those who've agreed to present and getting a formal schedule out. We will have online sessions, and so those who actually come in person will have the luxury of hanging out in the evening together in a more relaxed way and building network without having to, in a more informal way, I guess, is the best way, I would say that. So that's kind of the gist of it.
[00:42:31] Speaker C: Well, Mary Jo, I definitely want to get the addresses to these websites so that I can post them with the podcast, so that when people hear this, if they want to find out more information, that I want them to be able to find you and connect with the different organizations.
[00:42:47] Speaker A: Thank you. I really appreciate that. And I can tell you it's going to be relaxed a lot of fun. Well, I probably won't be as relaxed as I could be at times. I will be, but I'll be very more hyper vigilant trying to pull all this off. But the goal is to have fun and to meet one on one. And I have to keep reminding myself of that.
[00:43:13] Speaker C: The other thing that I wanted to bring up, the last thing I wanted to bring up, because I know that you are doing some work with Fort Berg, and there's probably four or five of us that are trying to develop this idea that Virginia satir started talking about before her death. And I would love to hear your perspective and what you're doing with fourth birth. And if you could, just for the listeners that don't know anything about fourth birth, you might give them just a summary of first birth, second birth, third birth, and then now what you are trying to share about the fourth birth.
[00:43:49] Speaker A: Okay, I'm very honored to do that. And Virginia talked about three births. That's what she primarily publicly would teach the first birth. First birth is the sperm in egg. And of course, the original way was man and woman. And then it has evolved in different alternatives, as I won't go into what those are. People are aware of them, but that has brought controversy because of those things. And the second birth is when the child comes out of the vagina. That's considered the second birth. Well, that also presented a lot of issues when there was, you know, young children who gave birth, incest and all kinds of serious problems, and they hid who the parents were and or things where different things happened. Maybe twins were born, one of the twins died, and the family members didn't talk about the other child, et cetera, et cetera. But there were many kind of variations about the first birthday and the second birth that impacts mental health care. But Virginia started dealing with the third birth was in her orientation, when the person stepped into their own power of making their mental decisions separate from wherever they were being influenced, whether it was a family birth, family birth mom and dad, etcetera. So she also would talk about, and she alluded to this, and I've written it up in a publication that I put together, is the beginning of the fourth birth. The fourth birth is both. What Virginia was dealing with is moving into spirituality, being a forefronter of your life in empowerment. Not just mental empowerment, mental emotion. And that's the other thing that bothers me, is they've left out the word many times. People say body, mind and spirit, and it's like, hello, it's body, emotion, mind, and spirit. And spirit is not religion, and spirit is different than mental health. It is dealing with realms of existence.
[00:46:37] Speaker C: Be awesome.
[00:46:39] Speaker A: So that's really where she was coming from. And my development of that came about when I was in, I learned the beautiful people group was going to meet in Wilmington, and I couldn't go for the whole time. And there's a story that I won't share now, but I did go and I was asked by Sandra, if I'm saying her last name right, Finkelman, who's a family therapist, to talk about my, to do a presentation. So I said, well, I think I would like to do is talk about the fourth birth, because I had been in conversation with John Baman about the fourth birthday. He and I were starting to explore what that might look like and how it would be taught. And so I thought, I'm going to offer it. And there were twelve people who came to the session that I did in Wilmington that was in, I think it was November of this year. Is that when that conference went? And so, and then when I came back from then, I started a new website that's www. Dot Akamai University. One word, dot education.
And that is the Virginia Satir Network association with Akamai University and the Global Healing alliance. And where I launched the, the detail of what happened at ilearn in the work that I'm doing that shows more clearly as a focus all the work, the integration of the satir work with energy therapies. And the other thing I want to say, there has been so much research from a broader context that is impacting what Virginia launched, for example, with her teaching and so her visual things, that there wasn't a language, an acceptable language for life energy is what I'll call it, what Steve Banman says, or Buckbee says. And he said, you know, he said to me, Mary Jo, it's harder for me to understand some of those far out things you're talking about. I call it life energy. I say, right on, Steven, I like what you're saying. And I agree, because when you're speaking before an audience, you have to understand what is the vocabulary that will work.
[00:49:39] Speaker C: You don't want to confuse people.
[00:49:40] Speaker A: Yeah. And I remember Virginia invited me to teach a group of family physicians in Florida for her because she couldn't do it. And I go, you want me to represent your teaching in family?
I think it was family. No, it was family doctors, generic family doctors. She said, yes, I do.
So I remember going, hmm, how do I, how do I do this? This is interesting. So I did the classical satir thing, one on one relationship, and I said, okay, tell me why you are here at this conference, and tell me who you are and what you do. Well, I'm a family practice doctor, and I work deliver babies, and da da da da. And he described that. And I said, oh, okay. And I said, all right. And then we had somebody else come up who was going to be the father and then the mother. And it was a. The mother was a young person and was there with her mother, and the father wasn't allowed to come. So I had this being played out, the family dynamics, and I said, okay.
I said, this mother is going to deliver this baby, and then she's going to turn it over. And even though you're the biological father, she's not going to carry it because she's too young. It was a story similar to that. And so we played this out and played the roles like Virginia does with the sculptor. Then finally, after we finished, the medical doctor said, obstetrician said, I never thought of any of that.
And so it really opened up his perspective of it isn't only when they come in and give them a pill or do this and do your little piece. Look at the whole family who are influenced by what is happening.
So that became really an iconic thing. And looking at the fourth birth is where a person steps into their own power of what their spirituality is in dealing with the broader context of life. And some of the satir people have said to me, well, Mary Jo, I'm not like you. I'm not intuitive. And I said, any one of you can do what I do. I've just been working at it a whole lot longer than a lot of people.
[00:52:40] Speaker C: The thing I love so much about the fourth birth that, and I know that Virginia did start her writing on it. Just nothing ever published, I don't believe.
But part of her speaking about this was that she saw a need for people to speak about their spiritual journey. And everybody has a spiritual journey, whether they're religious or not. And what does it mean whenever you start realizing how you're connected to others?
For christian people, you have a roman catholic background. I have a christian background. For us, we grew up learning about how God wanted us to be all one. Well, what does that mean for us to be connected like that? Like he is in him, and the father is in the Son, the son is in the father. What does all this mean for us to be connected? Well, whether you're a Christian or you have a different religion, everybody is searching and she saw the need for that to even be a part of what people talked about in therapy, because it's a part of their life.
So I wish we had more writings from her. But I love the fact that people like you are looking at this and making sure that we carry on this idea that we need to be, not talking about not just the emotional or the mental part of people's struggles, but also the spiritual journey that they're experiencing and creating a safe place for them to be able to talk about those, well, that journey that they're on, absolutely.
[00:54:14] Speaker A: The way you articulate it was brilliant. That is what she said and did. And there are some clues from her, different materials. I have some of them documented in the place that I had written, and I am starting a publication in. Carolyn Nesbitt is helping me with that, and I would like to invite you to help me with that as well. I'm serious.
[00:54:43] Speaker C: I'd love collaborating with you. Anytime we've had conversations. It helps me to think deeper on certain things, and I hope I can do the same for you.
[00:54:52] Speaker A: Yes, but the additional piece, I want to say, is coming up with a vocabulary of what the oneness principle is in the oneness, life, energy, what it is like. And there are many experts who have spoken to that in different fields, and one of them is Lynn McTaggart, who is doing the power of intention or the power of eight in intention.
And she's a, I forget what her profession was. She's not a mental health professional, but her profession in the publishing not publishing field.
It'll come to me. But anyway, I met her in actually in England when both of us were speaking at a joint conference together.
We started our relationship then, and I became involved. She studies hard math, which is documenting through their research the interconnection energetically worldwide. And they have documented that in the health journey. And one of the things, because when I veered off and did the energy therapy piece, I learned the vocabulary. The vocabulary associated with that goes beyond the physical body, and that is different than religion. And so that's one of the things we're going to be talking about in April and this weekend. On Sunday, I am going to be doing at 04:00 a fourth verse of a few people that I've invited or anyone who wants to pop in, because I did mention it on Wednesday at the Satyr thing, and I'm not orchestrating it other than I'll put out a link and people can come if they want to come. And, and to me, it is symbolic. This is Easter weekend for the catholic church. I'll be doing my church things, normal things. In addition, I want to do a fourth birth Virginia's thing.
[00:57:09] Speaker C: Wow, that's wonderful.
[00:57:10] Speaker A: Then the second time that I will be doing it with other people. And Pat Jamison had said she was going to come. She's the current president of Ilearn, and we've started working closely on similar kind of colleagues and helping. We've had conversations when I presented at the conference in, at the Ilearn conferences past. So people are coming together. Not everyone is going to be what they want to jump in and do, but the ones who want to be there, they'll find a network of people who are willing. And I'm hearing this word. Thank you, Virginia. Take the risk to explore this far out aspect connected to the work and helping to give it a home base that is solid.
[00:58:08] Speaker C: As we wrap up this interview, one of the things that I would love to get from you, Mary Jo, is for you to speak some virginia satir wisdom to our listeners. Something you know, that you've heard from her that you really believe you'd like to pass on to anybody who's listening today.
[00:58:24] Speaker A: I'd be happy to do it.
Your family taught you something very, very important. All your experiences, good and bad, shaped who you are today. So take time to look at your whole story, not just now. Look at the past. Look at the hard times. Be open to new possibilities.
Let your light shine, both going forward in the here and now and in the past.
Let's reset things.
A new trajectory of love, support for each other, forgiveness for the hard times.
But to know they were part of what was needed to learn. Being a human being this journey and becoming fully human, his body, emotion, mind and spirit.
[00:59:26] Speaker C: Mary Jo, I am so thankful for you. I'm so thankful for this time that we've been able to talk, and I am inspired by how much you continue to do the work of helping people find peace within, peace between and peace among.
[00:59:42] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:59:45] Speaker B: As we conclude this episode of the Virginia Satir podcast, I want to leave you with a reminder that the journey of self discovery and transformation is ongoing.
Virginia Satir's wisdom continues to inspire us to nurture healthier relationships, foster open communication, and embrace personal growth. Remember, you hold the power to create positive change in your life and the lives of those around you. Well, that's it for today's episode. See you next week. Thanks for listening to Virginia Satir podcast. Be sure to, like, subscribe and give us a review wherever you listen to the podcast and share this with a friend. Also, for more information on Virginia Satir, you can go to satirglobal.com or liveconnectedtherapy.com. Until next time, be kind to yourself and to others. You are a miracle.
