Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: The younger generations are far more relation to focus. They also, you know, they're not super money hungry. A lot of them aren't super motivated by money and they're looking for different things. And one of those things is meaning and purpose and connection in their work. And leaders need to understand that because, you know, creating the meaning and the purpose and the connection for people is what's going to get you the most awesome people and it's going to get the most awesome stuff out of the people that you've got, you know?
[00:00:42] Speaker B: You are listening to exploring Satir's legacy the Virginia Satir podcast I am your host, Michael Argumnes Hardin and together we will embark on the journey of self discovery, empowerment and meaningful connection.
Let's dive in.
Today's guest is Joanne Perrell. She is the director and founder of Fathom, a south african based executive coaching company. She established Fathom to help businesses grow and leaders achieve their full potential. Joanne is a globally acclaimed agile coach, certified scrum trainer, keynote speaker and facilitator. She's held senior leadership roles for many years and uses those experiences in her work as an executive coach. She leverages her deep understanding of complex systems to bring holistic perspectives to her partnering organizations. Joanne has been consulting in and training agile methods for over a decade and combines her experiences as an internal coach and facilitator with her experiences as a consultant. She loves to learn and keeps learning. Recently, she has deepened her coaching skills by being trained in the Satir coaching and mentoring program. She brings the human aspects of Virginia Satir's work to many of her elements of her coaching training and her work with leadership. She believes what she has learned through the Satir model has been life changing personally and has been an incredible benefit to leaders and their organizations.
[00:02:09] Speaker C: I want to welcome our guest, Joanne Perold to today's podcast and I just want to tell you, Joe, I'm so excited to have met you and I'm really excited for the listeners to get to know you as well. Thank you so much for being here.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: Thank you so much for inviting or inviting me. Michael, I'm also really excited to have met you and so happy to be here today.
[00:02:32] Speaker C: Well, if you don't mind, let's just start off by you telling the listeners a little bit about you, what you do, how you're, the work you're engaged in. I would love for them to know some of the cool things that you get to do.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Thanks, Michael.
So I work in South Africa mostly, but also with some international organizations. I live in Johannesburg and I work with lots of different organizations, helping them to improve their processes, helping them to think about their leadership, coaching and training leadership teams and teams that most often I work with software teams, but not exclusively. I often work with with other teams, but a lot of my background has been working with software teams. So lots of different and interesting kinds of people and helping them to understand and deliver whatever it is that they're doing better.
[00:03:28] Speaker C: Yeah. So what's so fascinating to me is that does not seem like it's in the realm of satir, but you have connected to Satir's work.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:03:37] Speaker C: Talk a little bit about how those things came together.
[00:03:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Thanks for that. I first learned about Virginia's work in 2012, I think it was I attended the Aye conference, and Esther Derby and Don Gray, they did a day session before the conference connecting people with some new concepts and some new ideas. And a lot of the stuff that they shared was Virginia's work. So they shared the shared congruence and the model for congruence. They shared Virginia's interaction model or ingredients of an interaction. They shared the change model and how change happens and a whole lot of these kinds of things. And I connected so well with them. They really felt like they helped change my life. I got new perspective, I got new perspectives about how other people see the world about that gave me the opportunity to, I think the way that Virginia puts it is so beautiful to understand and know how I can stop giving away my power to other people and take responsibility for myself, but also, like, ways to help other people to take responsibility for their selves, you know?
And so through that, I learned a little bit more. The year after that, I went and did PSL, which is problem solving leadership. And that taught me more things and gave me more insight. And then in 2019, I went and did the satir intensive with Jean and Hugh. They were running a satir intensive in Toronto, which is outside Toronto. And that gave me even more things. And the more I learned, the more excited I got and the more I could see how I could apply all of the things that Virginia was talking about to teams, to organizations, to leadership, to helping people to learn about their own power, to learn how to. How to sit in their own power in a congruent way, you know, and grow their own esteem. And that's, like, really the magic and the thing that excites me the most about what I get to do is as often as possible, that's the things that I want to, the area I want to play in is really helping people get to that place.
[00:06:04] Speaker C: Yeah. That's one of the things that I love so much about Virginia Satir's work is definitely, as a therapist, I get to utilize her model, working with clients, and I can see how it transforms their relationships and transforms how they engage the world. But that's the case no matter what. What field a person's working in. Right. That you're able to do this in a different realm, but it's for the same reasons. To improve relationships, to develop health, and to be able to have access to the power that you have. I mean, all the same reasons can be really a blessing to other people.
[00:06:42] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly.
It's actually just a magic thing to see when people start to realize and get connected back to their own resources, realize that they've got all of these resources, they just haven't been connected with them effectively, and to connect them back with that, raise their esteem, raise the confidence, and then help them to earn that in a way that's congruent with other people.
Oh, so now I can say no. And how do you say no in a work context? Well, you can't just say no.
Go to hell, whatever you need.
So, yeah, so it's also about, like, how can I use my if no medallion, but in a congruent way. And it creates a sense of. It gives people freedom. Right. Like, the five freedoms. They start to get these freedoms not just for themselves, but in their work contexts as well. So that is what excites me.
[00:07:49] Speaker C: Yeah. And it is. I love hearing you talk about this, too, because you have all these different. All the different parts of her model that you've already mentioned, the process of change, the interactions, ingredients of an interaction, and you're using all of these kind of combined interweaving with one another. And that's the other thing that I appreciate so much about what satir did is that she gives us so many ways to really make it palatable for the people that listen to hear it. And there are some tools that we have in our hands that can help even people visualize how this works.
So how, what are some of the things, as you're working with your clients, that seem to be the most impactful as far as using some of these tools that you're teaching?
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Yeah. So that's so interesting. So there's so many. So I think the things that I use a lot and that have a huge amount of impact. So ingredients of an interaction is amazing. It really helps people to understand how communication works, but also how it goes wrong and gives them some opportunity and some new ways to think about, you know, how can they make some shifts? How can they, you know, create some awareness in how they say things or what they say or what's happening for them in terms of, you know, why they're responding in a certain way?
It's tricky sometimes, because in some organizations, talking about feelings isn't always easy, but.
But slowly, people are starting to realize how important it is. Like, feelings are there. You can't ignore them. You know, they're going to be there. So let's, like, help unpack what's going on for us, you know? So the ingredients of an interaction is something that I use really often. Um, the. The self esteem toolkit, actually. I teach it in so many different ways and in so many different contexts, and I, and I just love how, you know, helping people to, uh, connect back to, oh, do I need to put on my detective set because, you know, there's data missing here, or I need to stay curious instead of judgy, you know, how can I stay curious? And what does that look like, you know? And how can you help people to stay curious in a scene, you know, helping? So sometimes you can give a team a whole, you know, self esteem toolkit, and, and they can use the toolkit together, or they can use the toolkit in all of these different ways, you know, oh, how can we remember to wear our detectives hat so that we can stay curious? And how can we.
How can we use our courage, stick to share feedback with each other in a way that allows each other to know, you know, what's happening for us? And how can we use our wishing ones to share what we want and all of these small and different. How can we use our golden key to access new possibilities that we're not noticing at the moment for, you know, the conflict that we're having or for. Yeah. So I use, I use them when I teach about conflict, and I use them when I teach teams and create working agreements. And sometimes I use them in ways, like, without mentioning the toolkit themselves, but just helping people to connect, make these connections for themselves, you know, make the connections together.
[00:11:16] Speaker C: Now, I totally agree. You know, some. Sometimes I don't have to bring out the self, the self esteem maintenance kit, but people, when engaging a new situation or a familiar situation, can come into it with a judging, a sense of judging, and for them to have an option of being curious instead of judging, just that little difference helps them go, hmm, what would it look like if I was just curious instead of judging what I'm seeing?
So yeah, the language is also helpful.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. And even the other day.
The other day, I was opening a new session with a group of people, and I said to. I said to them, you know what? Sometimes we have all. We bring all these expectations into the room. Expectations of ourselves, expectations of each other, you know, and I just. I made, you know, I said to them, well, what. What is an expectation that you could just let go of for yourself today or for other people? What expectation do you have of others that you could just let go of or of yourself? Yeah.
[00:12:28] Speaker C: And we all. And we all carry that around with us, don't we, these expectations?
And in business, it's even like we have different expectations for our work life. Like, there's going back to the ingredients of an interaction.
One of the things that I find is that the rules for commoning. I mean, we're all humans, and we all carry these rules for commoning. And some people think, well, I can't say certain things to my boss, or I can't speak my needs because I don't want. I fear that I'm gonna lose my job. Or. I mean, we have these, and people really get stuck here, and sometimes we resent other people for not listening to us or hearing us, when really we're actually keeping those thoughts to ourselves because we don't feel like we have a right to bring things up.
[00:13:19] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. And so even sometimes, you know, just creating, just. Just giving people a language for it or just giving them a shared understanding for what might be happening is something that.
That can be so helpful for them. Right. Just. Just that small, you know? Oh, wow. They can have their own epiphany, and you don't. You don't need to do anything. You know, you just. You just give them the visual or just help them to see something or create an awareness. You know, like the seven A's that Jean and Virginia speak about, you know, that first step to change is. Is awareness. Right. And so sometimes all you're doing is giving the person an awareness that they didn't have before, and it starts them on that journey of change. You know, once they're aware of something, then they can learn how to accept it, and then they can own it, and then they can articulate it and ask for help. And, you know, and so the other tool that I use often is the change model for change, you know? Yes. Thank you.
Yes. Yeah. And I share that, like, often because, you know, there's so much change in organized, in organizations that's happening all the time. And I think just an appreciation of. An appreciation of maybe this chaos happening for us, you know, and. And how can we be patient for each other? Or how can we. What do we need to do in order to support a transforming idea or support practice and integration in a different way? Or, you know, help a team through something? Or if we're just loading change upon change upon change upon change, you know, how we impact people are just in chaos.
[00:15:09] Speaker C: Yeah. If you don't mind, I'd like to go back to kind of your personal journey because you mentioned that getting this information and hearing some of Satir's model was life changing to you.
And really, that's kind of where I think we all begin. We realize, well, and I love that about Satir's model as well. Satir always felt like all of us needed to do our own work before we try to help somebody else. And it really sounds like you did that as well.
What would you say was the most life changing thing that really, that you learned about?
[00:15:49] Speaker A: Sure.
There's so many.
I think. I think I was thinking about it today, actually, and I think one of. Cause I'm rereading making contact, and so one of the things that came up for me was around not giving away your power, you know?
And it's not about power over. It's about power with and power within, you know, and being okay to just sit in your power and, you know, like, recognize your own power and just. It's okay, like, allowing yourself to have that, you know? I think that's probably the most profound thing for me. I mean, there were so many things along the way, but I think, and every time I teach something or every time I share something with somebody or every time I sit in a satir session or a workshop or something, there's some new way that I learn, some new way that there's some small transformation that happens for me, you know? So I think, you know, that and also just that notion of just, like, being able to accept our own parts, you know, what are all the parts of us? And just being able to learn about, know, accept and integrate those, because once we do that, then we control the parts, and the parts don't control us, you know? And I think that, for me, is such a beautiful. And, you know, I don't think I've integrated all my parts yet, and maybe I never will. And that's part of the beauty of satir's work, and it's part of the journey, you know? But there's so many that I have integrated, and it's like, created huge shifts for me around things that I can let go of or just ways that I, that I'm able to, you know, do things differently, access the world differently, take responsibility differently, be a better partner, better trainer, better human, you know, in all the little ways that matter.
[00:17:58] Speaker C: Joe, you, earlier you mentioned congruence, the idea of congruence. And I would say that's probably one of the most impactful things to me for some of the same reasons. All right, I, because, like, as far as the way you describe power, growing up, I learned pretty quickly how to honor other people. Right. I had a pretty harsh dad and, you know, you really have to honor him and you have to honor adults and, you know, you learn how to honor others and you even start learning how to honor the context pretty good. But part of not having power was I didn't know how to honor myself and my own feelings and my own wishes. And. And so in studying congruence, I realized, wow, I actually allow people to also engage me in ways that don't honor me because I don't know how to honor me. So early in my career, I started working on that, and it blessed my marriage, it blessed, it blessed me in other relationships, it blessed me at work because I was able to honor others in context really well. But everything improved when I also began honoring myself. And that doesn't take away from how I honor others in the context, but all three together gave balance to how I related to people.
[00:19:21] Speaker A: Yeah, that so resonates with me because I think also I know how to honor a context and others very well, but not always myself. And so, yeah, and then what comes out instead of, like, you know, the result of not honoring yourself effectively and in ways that create balance means that when eventually you're going to burst, you know, and when you burst, you're going to burst in these horrible ways that honor nobody, you know, or often don't, you know, they don't honor the context or the other person.
Everybody is just, this is a mess, you know, all around.
So, yeah, so I think that, yeah, creating, making sure that balance exists and creating that balance, and that's also what I want to, like, what excites me is, you know, helping other people to understand that there is this balance, you know, because so often in organizations, you see leaders who know how to honor the context, you know, and sometimes themselves in that context, but they just forget about the others, you know, they forget about people and they forget that people are human and, you know, have things happening and all of these kinds of things you know, and they don't get great results by, you know, they think they're getting great results, but they're not, they're not getting great results at all. You know, they're getting half of, they're getting half the engagement. They could. They're getting half of, you know, and they're getting grad.
People are, you know, doing it because they feel like they have to, or they're doing things because they're scared or they're doing things because, you know, they, they feel disempowered or whatever the case may be, but that doesn't, that never gets, or almost never gets the best out of people.
[00:21:08] Speaker C: You know, I would love for you to pass on wisdom, you know, as, because there's. People are going to be listening to this from all walks of life, and they're working in their jobs. And what you just said, there's people going, yeah, my boss does not honor me, and I, and I would do so much more for them. Or there might be bosses that just listen to this right now and go, that's right. I need to honor my employees and consider that as I engage them. So, because we have everybody that's listening that probably has a vocation, what is some wisdom you'd like to pass on to them?
[00:21:48] Speaker A: That's a great question, Michael. What is my wisdom?
I think a great first step is listening to podcasts like this, getting some information about, more information about the CTR model. I think some other wisdom is also about. It's about becoming a little bit self aware, just taking moments to, to think and to, you know, connect with yourself and understand what's going on for you. Because for me, that's often a first step. That's the first step to understanding. If I can understand what's going on for me, then I can operate more effectively in any context that I'm part of, you know? And. And so once I understand what's going on for me, then I can start to take a step that says, okay, cool. So am I honoring myself? Am I honoring the context? Am I honoring the other? Or what? What's missing from this? And then I can say, okay, something's missing. Let me go and see what's the next step. Okay, I'm. I'm nothing. Honoring other people enough. Okay, so what does that look like? You know, and now I can think about ideas. Now I can go and say, oh, I need something to help me here. Where can I find tools? Oh, I heard Joe mention something about a maintenance toolkit, and maybe there's some tools in there that can help me. Oh, there's a golden key. Okay, what's the golden key? Oh, it's about looking for new possibilities. Oh, where can I find new possibilities? And so now we can, you know, you can start to link all of those. I think that's the one. The one wisdom I'd like to share. And the other thing I think that's, that's had an impact for me was, you know, Virginia did a lot of, she spoke about centering and keeping yourself centered. You know, it's so easy to be.
It's so easy to be congruent when you're centered. It's so easy to be congruent when you're in balance. It's easy to remember all of these pieces and keep them balanced when you yourself are in balance and you're in balance with yourself. You know, and I think that she had so many wonderful centerings, and there are so many different ways to, you know, there's great meditations and all of these wonderful things that can help us to just spend time, you know, centering ourselves, connecting with ourselves, think, you know, spending time even just connecting with our own body and what's going on for us. And I think, for me, those are the things that are small and impactful and can lead to so many more things, you know? And then, you know, there's ways to, to think about Virginia's books, and there's the super intensive that you can do in, in North Carolina or in Cape Town, and there's all these other ways that you can just get the richness that is Virginia's work.
[00:24:47] Speaker C: Yeah. You mentioned meditations and centerings. And I love one of the things that John Banman says. He often says if you don't have 20 minutes a day to meditate, you need an hour.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:25:02] Speaker C: Isn't it great?
[00:25:03] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:25:05] Speaker C: But what I'm hearing you say is part of the wisdom is to be hungry for information, seek out more information, grow yourself that, that it's not just that you have. You have to grow better in your tasks at work, but actually grow as a human being and become fully human because a fully human person engaged in life can engage their work in a more potent way.
So. Absolutely. And there's so much out there, and I love that, that we're even suggesting to the listeners that this is not just for creating better relationships in their most push in their personal life, but truly to engage the work and be and feel more successful there. We all need to know our worth.
[00:25:57] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I think I love that phrase of being fully human, you know, and that was how Virginia described it, this model for being awfully human, which is so beautiful, this way of, like, meeting the world and meeting the opportunities that the world has to offer, like, with the whole of you. And that's really beautiful.
[00:26:24] Speaker C: One of the things you said earlier also just, you know, when you were mentioning the wisdom, you said, it's not just saying, am I asking yourself the question, am I honoring self other in context? But you also mentioned then actually visualizing, what would that look like to honor somebody else? What would it look like to honor myself? And for the sake of the bosses that are listening, what might it look like for a boss to honor their employees? How does that look?
[00:26:59] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great question, Michael. I think for me, there's so many small things that can happen that allows people to know that they are valued, and that's just one small step. So making sure that there's space for people to be heard, to share their ideas in a meeting, understanding that the combination of voices giving ideas to solving a problem is what makes the solution better and more robust. So do I make space for people?
That's one thing. Do I connect with people on a human to human level? How often do I actually speak to the people that report to me? And what do I know about them as humans? You know, do we have a weekly check in? Do we have a monthly check in? Do we have some kind of a check in where I actually connect with these people face to face on a human to human level as well as on a human to work level? You know, am I including that in the way that I connect with individuals?
Do I try to hear their ideas? Do I really try to listen to their problems? And, you know, there's often I heard people speak about leaders who sometimes say, don't bring me problems, bring me solutions, you know, and. And it's kind of like, well, maybe if they had the solution, they would have brought you to solution. Maybe they're stuck, you know, and they're actually, this is what they need you for, is to help them solve this problem. Yeah. So. So are we listening? You know, are we connecting? Are we taking time to understand just in those small ways? I think that already creates a huge impact.
[00:28:57] Speaker C: Yeah, I absolutely. I listened to a speech that Daniel Goldman once was sharing that with. Emotional intelligence is so very important, more important. Some of the soft skills are so much more important than even having a high iq that it is important to be able to engage. But I can only imagine, though, that, that sometimes bosses don't always receive the information you just gave, like, yes, I want to do that better.
I can almost hear that boss that would say, I have to hand hold them. I have to go to a, you know, we're all adults here. Can we just do our job?
You have that. You find that the people have that attitude, or are people really understanding the value of those soft skills?
[00:29:44] Speaker A: I think there used to be much more of a notion of, oh, you know, we don't bring our feelings to work and, you know, people must just come and do when they come here to do, get stuff done and that's what we pay them for and, you know, all of those things. I think that was very much the focus. But there's, I definitely noticed a shift in understanding that of how important it is to nurture soft skills and how, and how important it is to create real connections with people and to, you know, as great leaders. I love Goldman's work, and so his, his leadership styles that he talks about that, you know, great leaders are able to dance between these different leadership styles depending on the context and the people at hand. You know, you know, what is the problem that we're trying to solve? Who are the people involved in solving the problem? What is necessary right now, all of those things together is what leaders need to be able to use to assess how do I need to show up here? And then they need the skills to be able to dance in that way.
And a very important part of that is these soft skills. If you know who your people are and if you know their capabilities and where they are and what's going on for them and all of these things, it's so much easier for you to dance between those stances or make decisions about what needs to happen next or show up in a way that's going to be helpful to the group and what they need right now and get them moving in the right direction or get them solving the right problem or whatever it is that needs to happen, and then you don't have to do it for them, you know, or tell them what to do or micromanage the situation or all of those things that actually don't help, really, and mean that your work is double or triple or quadruple what it needs to be, you know, so, yeah, so it's all of these different ways that, that can just have a huge impact. I'm working with a leader now where I can visibly see he's so great at making these real connections, and I can visibly see ship in the people that report to him and in their behavior from his amazing leadership, and that creates shift in the people that they work with, and it cascades down, you know, and that's just so amazing.
[00:32:07] Speaker C: Yeah. Doesn't that make it so rewarding when you can see those real changes happening in real time and you're like, what a blessing it is to see those changes, right, yeah.
[00:32:18] Speaker A: And people are just like, happier.
[00:32:22] Speaker C: Right. And the boss is really, actually, they're working smarter, not harder. Right.
They're able to pull back a little bit and their employees actually start blooming.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. And you watch that, you know, you can see that happen. It's so beautiful.
[00:32:38] Speaker C: You know, in North America, we talk often about the generations and how generations have changed over time, you know, the millennials and the Gen Z's and how younger generations require different things that bosses need to be aware of.
Where you live, what do you see? Is there a difference in the new, in the younger generation of employees and what do bosses need to pay attention to?
[00:33:04] Speaker A: Definitely. Definitely. I was actually facilitating a session yesterday, and there were different generations in the room, and they were both in human resources, human capital. And the way that they thought about things was so, so different.
The one group thought about things very much from an organizational perspective, from the context and the organization.
Nope, perspective. And the other group really thought about things from the individual and the personal and the human connection perspective. And it was kind of interesting to see these different ways. So I definitely see that the younger generations are far more relation to focus as well. They relationship focused. They also, you know, they, they're not super money hungry. A lot of them aren't super motivated by money, and they're looking for different things. And one of those things is meaning and purpose and connection in their work. And, and leaders need to understand that because, you know, creating the meaning and the purpose and the connection for people is what's going to get you the most awesome people, and it's going to get the most awesome stuff out of the people that you've got.
[00:34:18] Speaker C: You know, I can, I imagine that because I see it even in some of my clients that come in their bosses and they're struggling with some things. I can see that sometimes they're frustrated when their employees are so different than them and they're requiring so many different things. And it can be a frustration at times.
This younger generation, I know, can sometimes be a frustration to people that don't fully understand human capital and how much really paying attention to how you connect with others is important.
But I'm imagining also that this younger generation, when they become the bosses, they're going to be superior. They're going to be superior at connecting with their employees and seeing the value of the human being at the job site.
And even as we're moving towards more jobs being online, we're going to need bosses who connect with human beings because we're not going to be in each other's presence all the time.
And people really being skilled at knowing how to connect with a human being, we're going to need those younger generations to be the bosses.
[00:35:30] Speaker A: Definitely. Definitely. I can already see it. There's people that I've liked that I have seen grow, and I've mentored some of them, and already I see how amazing they are as leaders in their own right and how they're able to connect and how they're able to really understand what their reportees need and how to. How to encourage them, how to grow them, how to, you know, get the best out of them, how to ensure that there's great collaboration, because that's the other thing that we're going to need, you know, is this ability to work together more effectively, which is, which is not easy. Right.
[00:36:15] Speaker C: Especially online.
[00:36:17] Speaker A: Exactly. And what does that. So one of the things that I love, one of the Virginia things that I love that I think she, that she taught me is not Virginia personally, but through her work, I've learned that it's in our, in our sameness, we connect, and in our differences, we grow. Right. And, you know, I think those differences are such a big opportunity to learn to grow and to be better and to create understanding and new perspectives and build on each other's ideas, you know.
[00:36:51] Speaker C: Joe, if I could switch gears a little bit when I just feel so blessed to be able to talk to people from all over the world and, you know, I've been able to interview people from Asia and from Canada and from Mexico and talking to you in South Africa, I am just always amazed at how satir's teachings resonate with people from all over the world.
How do people from your part of the world, how do they hear Satir's work and Satir's words?
[00:37:31] Speaker A: That's a great question.
I think there's a lot of connection in Satir's words and in so many other things that are, you know, in South Africa, so people are, it's in a similar way to anywhere else in the world, these universalities that are like experiences that everybody has no matter where they are in the world. And I think that that resonates so fully with so many South Africans, the universal yearnings that we all have. The, you know, the yearning, the belonging, the wanting to belong, to be loved, to be valued and understood and heard and all of these things. And I think for South Africans specifically, there's this, like, we are such a. There's so much diversity here, you know? And there's so. So many. We have so many differences, but we also have so many sadnesses.
So there's these beautiful opportunities to create new connections in a lot of these universalities that are so beautiful. And I think that's where the magic lies, you know, that ability to, like, find these connections amongst people that are so different so often, you know?
[00:38:49] Speaker C: Yeah. This really goes back to the saying, the quote that you just mentioned about that Virginia said that we connect on our sameness and we grow in our differences. What. What I'm hearing you say right now is, in South Africa, there's so much diversity, there's so much difference in people that you're in a growing state all the time because of all the differences that exist. So one of the things that benefits them in the satirical model is they can see where they're the same, and it helps them to feel more connected to people that are different. That the same does help them feel connected to one another.
[00:39:28] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. You braced it much better than me.
[00:39:32] Speaker C: We did that one together.
[00:39:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think.
But there's a resonance in, you know, in that also just being able to find your own confidence and power and.
And not give that away to other people. But if you're going to do that, you need to do it congruently. And so that balance of, again, understanding your worth and being able to sit in your own awesomeness and then share your needs, create that balance that we were talking about earlier, that congruence, that self other context, you know? And I think that that's. So Jean's actually coming to South Africa in August to do an intensive here in Cape Town. And I'm so excited because it just means that there's going to be so many more people that are going to get to experience the awesomeness of Virginia's work in South Africa and Gene McClendon.
[00:40:42] Speaker C: Because she's awesome, too, right? She's so much.
I love her.
[00:40:49] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. Me, too. Yeah.
I'm very excited about that.
[00:40:54] Speaker C: One of the things that we talked about before we even met for this interview was, I just want people to know the kind of things that get you excited in the work that you do. Is there anything else that you've not mentioned that you would love to be able to share.
[00:41:09] Speaker A: No, I think I'm good. This has been such a rich conversation, Michael, and being able to share the.
Yeah, the work I do and how Virginia's work was never just about family. You know, people think it's about families, but it was never just about families. It's about. It's about communicating, it's about connecting, it's about growing, it's about learning, it's about healing. And all of those things need to happen in so many different contexts, you know? And, you know, as a family, maybe that's one way of doing it. But there's so she's got, there's so, so much of what she had to offer is applicable in so many other contexts, you know, to teams, to leaders, to individuals. Just there are, and I think it's a privilege to be able to make those connections and to share those things with other people in ways that make sense for them.
[00:42:15] Speaker C: Joe, it has been a true blessing to find you as a new friend, but also connect with you and get to know you a little bit better.
[00:42:24] Speaker A: Thank you so much. It's really been amazing chatting to you, and I agree to find you as a new friend and to connect in the space and for the invitation to speak with you tonight has been amazing.
[00:42:36] Speaker C: And I hope we can collaborate further in the future.
[00:42:39] Speaker A: Yes, me too. I'm excited about that.
[00:42:44] Speaker C: As we conclude this episode of the.
[00:42:46] Speaker B: Virginia Satir podcast, I want to leave you with a reminder that the journey of self discovery and transformation is ongoing.
Virginia Satir's wisdom continues to inspire us to nurture healthier relationships, foster open communication, and embrace personal growth. Remember, you hold the power to create positive change in your life and the lives of those around you.
[00:43:09] Speaker C: That's it for today's episode.
[00:43:11] Speaker B: See you next week. Thanks for listening to the Virginia Satir podcast. Be sure to, like, subscribe and give us a review wherever you listen to.
[00:43:18] Speaker C: The podcast and share this with a friend.
[00:43:21] Speaker B: Also, for more information on Virginia Satir, you can go to satirical or liveconnectedtherapy.com. until next time, be kind to yourself and to others. You are a miracle.
