Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: What do I hope people will get from this? I think a way of seeing their own lives in the lives of others and seeing that healing is possible at all levels.
I think the whole idea that the things we struggle with can be our resources, not our shameful pieces. I think that any therapy really needs to a include the body. I think I feel pretty strongly about that.
[00:00:33] Speaker B: You are listening to exploring Satir's legacy, the Virginia Satir podcast. I am your host, Michael Argumanes Hardin, and together we will embark on the journey of self discovery, empowerment, and meaningful connection.
Let's dive in.
Today's guest is Mary Leslie, the co author and editor of a new book, Virginia Satir's Evolving Legacy, transformative Therapy with a body mind connection.
She received her MSW from the University of British Columbia School of Social Work in 1969. She served as a sessional faculty member from 2008 to 2013, volunteered in South Africa with camps for vulnerable and orphaned children, and has over 30 years experience in healthcare. In addition to that, has maintained a private practice since 2001. Trained by Virginia satirical Mary Leslie has a passion for working with people from all cultures who are on their unique journey towards transformation. Some of Mary's early social work experiences were groundbreaking and inspirational. She worked extensively in British Columbia for causes related to social justice, peace and the environment.
She is a strong and persistent spokesperson whose clarity, fairness, gentle manner, and compassion model the values of her conviction to act for a safe and just world.
Mary, how are you doing today?
[00:01:57] Speaker A: I'm great, and this is a work of great passion for me. So it's wonderful to be here doing this.
[00:02:02] Speaker B: Well, fantastic. Well, before we dive into the book and everybody, just for everybody to hear the title, Virginia's the Evolving Legacy, transformative therapy with a body mind connection, we'll dive into the stories behind that book and anything you want to share with that. But right now I would love for the listeners to just get to know Mary Leslie a little bit. Sharon, a little bit about yourself.
[00:02:27] Speaker A: Well, I am a recently retired, I think I retired in October 22, 2022, clinical social worker that has worked mostly in healthcare and private practice and many different aspects. But I have been graced by a real encouragement to include spirituality in a lot of what I've done, and I think that's what's made my evolution as a therapist or a social worker easier and well supported. I think the first real time when I was told you must include spirituality and frame in your assessments was kidney transplant doctor who was jewish and just believed that if we didn't know what supported our patients in a broad way. We couldn't work with that support in a creative way.
[00:03:24] Speaker B: So do you remember how long ago that was?
[00:03:26] Speaker A: Yeah, it was 1986, which it's amazing.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: Because even now some people have a real difficulty, including spirituality, in conceptualizing how a patient needs to be cared for. So that's wonderful that you were given that direction that long ago.
[00:03:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I was.
And then I worked in a renal unit, besides someone doing healing touch with their patients, and just sat and looked with amazement and saw the difference it made. And it's essentially an act of prayer for me as I look at it and watch it. It's intention, it's attention, and it's believing there's something beyond.
So that drew me in, and that certainly helped my professional practice. And I had the privilege of setting up a clinic at the cancer agency for patients and families to learn and understand their own sort of energy and how to receive and support.
So I've been graced by this right through my career, and I'm grateful for those people.
[00:04:33] Speaker B: Now, did I read somewhere that your career began working with children?
[00:04:38] Speaker A: Yes, way back. Yeah.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: Tell me a little bit about that. I had an interest because my career started working at a children's home and working with children who were severely sexually abused. So I connected with that.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: So my first job was actually as a community mental health worker for a large area of the downtown of Vancouver.
And there were no satellite. You either had institutional care or you saw one of five of us in the city of Vancouver and a few agencies.
And I focused initially on schools because it was inner city schools and had the chance to just be quite creative about this. I wasn't going to stand back and do assessments and conferences all day. And so I had some really interesting things that I could do with teachers. They would just bring me in as a volunteer for the day, and I could watch the interactions in the class and where were the things we could shift to make things work better for students and for the teacher and, you know, assess students in their context. So I love that work. And from there, I went to, and I also did groups with teachers of kids they were concerned about. And so that was fun. It was really a gift to have the opportunity to be creative in that. And then I went to a children's treatment home, emotional mental health treatment home, and where kids lived in and worked alongside the care staff, but also involved the care staff and the family interviews so that it wasn't, you know, separated. It was a flow. And I found that really, I really enjoyed that work as well. I think it really prepared me to be a parent, too. I look back on it, you know, that every day sort of, you know, be positive, you know?
Yeah, it was helpful.
I would say that it wasn't really until I started to work with employee assistance programs that I got a chance to come back to children again. And I had. Satir's work was just perfect for that. You know, I had some fun moments with that. And also the Santra process was the tier focused as well. And I'm selling my sand tray toys today, and there's a big grief in. In that. But it's time, you know, one of.
[00:07:12] Speaker B: The things that I also just reading through, one of your bios that I was really interested in hearing more about is therapeutic touch and your. Your work with touch. Tell me more about your work and your understanding of the. The need and the power of touch.
[00:07:27] Speaker A: I think it varies from person to person. And I think the ground for that, for me is Virginia's sense of being able to read, who was ready and open for that. And so I think it isn't touch just for touch, but there are times when there are no words, you know, when people are in a state of trauma where they wouldn't hear what you said or they couldn't absorb it. And so asking permission just to touch. But you can touch emotionally and in presence as well as physically.
But even that requires the feedback from the person that you're working with. So I certainly grew up in the era where we didn't touch.
You know, I think that you take clues from your people that you're with, and I think there are times when nothing but touch would really do the message, send the message.
So it's kind of a range where I got to use it a lot in work was with patients who were having radiation and were terrified of putting a mask on and seeing all this equipment that was going to be moving in on them. And so there were times when I couldn't. I remember one case particularly where I couldn't touch the person because she had had sexual abuse, and she was really not into anybody touching her, but she let her husband touch her, and I touched him.
And as I grounded, he grounded. And then we went forth. So we had an intermediary there that was really important and essential, and she was able to have the treatment. So I think that was a time in chemotherapy. I often held the other hand of the person who was having treatment just so we could focus off, as they would say, the poisons coming in. They weren't poison, but that was a feeling a lot of people had so that we really just acknowledge that there was another part of her happening right. Right there. So, yeah, I think on dialysis treatments, people just relax so beautifully from a state of just tenseness and pain and so it. And in people in palliative care, just holding people's feet and being. Seeing family who were just paralyzed, that they couldn't do anything to help. And I just say, put your love in your hands and hold their feet and that off or hand, and, you know, it just, in those situations, it was essential.
[00:09:57] Speaker B: Yeah. So honoring, too, the way that you're doing it, the way you're considering them, their need, but also their openness and their feelings of safety going into touch.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Really important.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
Now, I also read something that said that the first time that you saw Virginia satir work was in 69, and that was. Well, I'd love to hear kind of the story behind the story there. And just your relationship with the satir model starting from that point.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: Well, I was at a Burnaby mental health as a field placement, and I was actually in a school working with some students, but at the time, they said anyone who wanted could come and hear her. As part of our field placement, she was called by the agency, and I was astounded. I mean, nobody was teaching me anything like this in school, but I think the thing that just really hit me was the sense of presence, that there were about 250 of us, I think, in the first incident, and that people could be so unaware of us and so authentically engaged with her was beyond impressive. You know, it really never left me that that sense of, you know, some people call it magic. It's not magic. It's much deeper than magic, but it is awesome to watch. So I came away in somewhat mystified, intrigued, but moved and changed. No question about that.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: I think I was, at the time, in group work, so it was a model for much beyond family work, but it certainly was a door opening to all kinds of things besides what Virginia was literally doing so well.
[00:11:52] Speaker B: I'd like to revisit something that you just mentioned earlier, and that's your journey in learning how to incorporate spirituality in the work that you do.
Do you want to tell us a little bit more about that?
[00:12:07] Speaker A: Well, you know, for the longest time, I was attentive to other people's spirituality, but tried to really be neutral in my presentation.
Then one day, we had people who had adverse reactions to transplantation, and so they would be very anxious. And so we had a lot of different religious groups, hindu, buddhist, First nations, eastern european.
We had the gamut, south asian. So I remember talking to a patient who had just come through a really difficult time, and we had set aside a space for him to do his daily meditations. He was Hindu from India, and as he left, he said, the one thing I need to share with you is your God and my God are the same God.
And I went, what he knows about my life. And, you know, so I think then I realized how much we communicate without those words, and that I had to pay attention to that part, too.
And, I mean, that comment will stay with me to my last breath. You know, it was a surprise, and it was a door as well, a doorway to say, you are there in that way, and you better be conscious of it and attentive to it and allow for it. So.
But mostly, I found the freedom to say, what do you need right now to people? And that can include something spiritual. You know, was often the opening door for that.
And then people would say, well, I'm not spiritual. I do such and such. And I'd say, well, that's included in spiritual in my idea, you know, so we broaden it for them as well as, you know, in our. In our discussion. Discussions. So it was always something.
I mean, I started my life very early with two parents who were medical missionaries, and so faith was a big part of my life right from the get go. But as I say, I learned to hold that back, although I had a professor in my 1st, 2nd year of group work who said, I want you to start with your own foundational values and then move to the professional values from there. And where are the synchronicities? Not leave them off at the side. And that was extremely helpful. And I think that helped me accept therapeutic touch and healing touch as part of my work, because I could put it in the context of start where you are and integrate. And really, that's what Virginia did. She was all about her own values as well as.
And so I think that it hope that answers your question.
[00:14:59] Speaker B: It does. It does. Yeah. And all of these things that I had questions about really feed into this idea, the book, in that you are including the body in ways that I think a lot of authors have left out or have not focused on when it comes to satir's work.
And I've noticed that even the evolution of the iceberg metaphor at one point did not have body sensations.
And then body sensations has now shown up into the iceberg model. Do you know the beginnings of that and how that occurred?
[00:15:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I do. First of all, I attended a health and spirituality workshop conference that was paid for by a friend. It was a gift, and I don't know if I would have found it otherwise. And I took focusing there by Eugene Johnlin. And then I came back to John Baman and said, we should be training everybody to do focusing. And he said, well, it's the root of our work. And I said, how often are we talking about it? So for John, that was an understanding but not part of the teaching. And so it was an evolution from there. But I continued to take special training and focusing for a while after that. And I think that was really a big influence for me in understanding Virginia's work. I remember after the focusing, the teacher that I had had also been very aware of Virginia, and she wrote an article on Virginia's the Tear in Johnland and how complimentary they were. So she really helped me integrate, and I think that I just kept pushing through and saying, can we talk about it a bit more?
[00:16:47] Speaker B: Well, you know, when I've worked with my clients and we talk about their feelings and being able to be mindful of what feelings are coming up for them at any given time, I also felt like something was missing in that the truth is our clients or all of us experience something in our body even before we're aware of the feelings that come afterwards. And for them to be able to step back and start understanding how their body is reacting in a moment even before they're aware of a feeling has been really helpful to me for that one aspect to be highlighted in the iceberg model. So I really appreciate your insistence that is what we end up doing, and it's really important.
[00:17:33] Speaker A: Well, I had help in that. And if you saw Julie Gerhardt's view of the iceberg, she's taken it quite a bit further, and she uses it in that way. So we all use it a bit differently. And I think that's one of the gifts of Satir and the way we were trained is that we aren't confined. But in terms of what you see on paper, it's still, it's there, but it's moving.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, that's great.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: I had lots of help in that.
[00:18:07] Speaker B: I love how the community comes together and talks intently about the model. I think that it helps even knowing from satir and what she has said on videotape that I've been able to watch. She expected this model to evolve.
[00:18:21] Speaker A: She did. And I had an interesting question from my niece, who's a physician, and she said, will that work with the people's approach that I'm working with. And I said, it's foundational. And I said, and you'll find out how much you already do this.
So I think that's, it's not a method. It is almost like an attitude. It's almost. It's deeper than, than a method. You want to be consistent in how you do what you do, but it comes from a very deep place. First, I believe in people and an attitude and holding the worth and the value of others before you start. Like, you're not the professional. You're a partner.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
Well, let's dive into the book.
This is a book that was published in 2024 this year, and I am so excited for our listeners to hear a little bit about it and really the beginnings of what led you to the place of even moving forward with this book.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: Well, I think I alluded to my conversations with John about bringing someone to teach focusing, but John and I just engaged in a number of conversations, and there was another fellow who was doing a lot of breath work, and John encouraged me to get together. And so the two of us, I can remember, had our first meeting about the book in the waiting room of the BC Ferry terminal, because that was the only place we could figure out to meet. And we talked about how it would be incorporated in, in actual teams, teaching.
And then we went back to John with their ideas. And then we added, he included and others added people as, who else is doing this work? And I had known Julie Gerhardt very well and knew what she was doing, and we had all trained together pretty much, so we were pretty aware of each other. We did include a couple of other people who didn't come in. Orlando decided, you know, maybe that wasn't the right time for them, but that group that we started with really continued right through. And so we were looking as a committee to be incorporating the model, but we decided to be very experiential in how we shared what we were doing. So we worked in Paris, and the rest observed and commented after what they saw, and we all just started to deepen so much and what we saw and what we did and what others did and realized. We had moved a lot through this process of what were we going to put in the manual? We never got to the manual. I have no idea what the manual has at this moment, but we met five times, I think, at Johns, and it was very hard for us all to get together. So there was a real break between each of our times.
We had a snowstorm where everybody was going to be flying in and couldn't. And we were on Zoom, and we said, hey, this is easy, you know, and then we thought, well, you know, we could even write a book this way.
And we all said, yes. And from the first zoom, I think we probably had 50 zooms before we finished. This was our way of being together from Palo Alto to the Okanagan to Bellingham, you know, we really were able to just be there quickly. And it was during COVID so people had quite a bit of time free, which I think helped the idea that we could actually do this. When Covid started to shift and people started to try to make up time for the absence of work, it got trickier. But, yes, I think the idea of let's do a book the moment it was said people were ready for that, and there was no convincing. It was just, yes, that's what we're meant to do here. So that's the beginnings.
And then along the way, I mean, I talk about streams and my own thinking of this. We all had had our own streams to get to that point. It was like we were merging at that point. John was very active, but he was, right from the beginning, not going to write. So his stream was definitely in there, and it was the biggest stream, I'd have to say, but I think. And then each. Our streams went through various rapids and curves and quiet times got sort of lost in an eddy, and then we back in, and so it was not as steady flowing all the time, but there was no point. Even though someone would say, I don't know if I can do this, that any of us gave up. And I think that was kind of remarkable, because at times it was extremely hard for people because of surgeries, because of diagnosis, new diagnosis, family crises. There were many. They all showed up.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: Life was happening.
[00:23:26] Speaker A: Life was happening. And so keeping it moving was a loyalty to each other and to Virginia, for sure.
But it. It took patience for us to wait till sometimes others could catch back up. And so that was. And the river just started to really gain momentum. Now, we did have a period where we were lagging, and John said something about, you know, you could give up here, and I said, I can't give up. This was a commitment I made to Virginia in my own mind, if not in hers, that I would look at the energy and her work and do something about that. And so I had no option to stop. So it was a matter of being creative. And I met our last member to come in, which was Leona of Le Mans Galante at a networking satir meeting. And I just said, you and I have to talk. And when she heard about her book, she said, I need to be involved. And I, I really felt Virginia has sent her along. And she said, I feel Virginia's permission for doing this. And she added a really stable new energy of how important the book was to the world that she felt. Nothing that had been written about Satir had really captured her. And this was the fullness of her for her own reasons as well as everybody else's, and the climate and culture. So I think she really took it to the river to a much smoother and of course, we're not going to stop place. There was no doubt then. And she was really a spiritual guide from that point for all of us. Yeah.
And she's just remarkable. I mean, she's 84, and she's still doing family reconstructions very consistently for aboriginal people, First Nations, Native Americans, however we want to call it. But she's had chiefs, she's had elders, she's had just the people off the street, you know, so she's been very, very potent.
She trained with Virginia for six years before Virginia died and was part of an agency that Virginia essentially set up with the satir as the basis for aboriginal people. So she was a perfect person to join.
[00:25:53] Speaker B: Yeah. What a gift.
[00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah, huge gift.
She made a phrase that just galvanized us. I mean, it just, when she said it, we all just were taken aback that when you learn the ideas of Virginia satir, it never leaves you, but it continues to grow. It doesn't stay the same. It's like it's entered your cells of your body. And so I think it is. It's that that's hard to convey, but her metaphor for that was very powerful for us. And I think we put it in highlights in our book, too.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Yeah, that's one of the things I love so much about reading. Reading through the book was the personal nature that seemed to come through, the impact, the personal impact that the reader can feel that each of you had.
You weren't just coming at this from a cognitive place of knowing a theory and wanting to promote a theory, but there was a sense of connection with Satir herself, but with the model and all the good you have seen come from it, interacting with people who were hurting.
[00:27:09] Speaker A: And that evolved with time. I think we started with that goal, but we went to an academic place first, and then all of a sudden we sat back and said, this is not grabbing us, it's not holding us. And that was when we thought we needed to start being more free to mention our own personal journeys and give it that more energetic flow for the book.
Nietzsche's chapter was pretty well finished then, so hers doesn't have quite as much of that, but she lives and breathes it in a very integrated way as well. Yeah, that grew with time.
[00:27:45] Speaker B: Well, I think it's a wonderful part of the book, and definitely you don't lose the parts that are so important for clinicians to hear, but you connect with the writers, and you realize how important this is.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: It also meant they had to become vulnerable and be that open. And I wouldn't say that was as big an issue as I thought it might be, but it was in the background. We supported each other with all that. Yeah, we did a lot of reading each other's work, but we also wrote our own stories, so it was a nice blend of feedback in that way.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: Any other stories that you want to share about the book itself or even talking a little bit about what you hope the readers take away?
[00:28:33] Speaker A: So just the other piece about the book. We really struggled with the right editor and the right publisher, and I had done articles, but never a book before.
And that was where I found myself going. Virginia, you got us into this. You need. And then, you know, in 24 hours, somebody would tell us just the right person. First the editor, and then the editor. Squash partner was our publisher.
In every case, it was right away. This is the right people to be working with her ideas and with their openness and their own life experiences were such, and it took on a more expensive journey. But we all agreed this was the most important thing we probably would ever do.
But the right journey, you know, it had to be done right. So. And in the flavor of her authenticity.
So that, I think, was pretty important in the journey. What do I hope people will get from this?
I think a way of seeing their own lives in the lives of others and seeing that healing is possible at all levels.
I think the whole idea that the things we struggle with can be our resources, not our shameful pieces.
I think that any therapy really needs to include the body. I think. I feel pretty strongly about that, but it also needs to include a partnership and not a dictation from a counselor. Okay. And that we have to get out of the way of imposing our information. That's just such a model with Virginia. I think the other piece that I find, I think will help people is the creativity. You can take your own creativity, your own imagination, your own life experience, your own metaphors, and enhance whatever you're doing as holding space for someone or in your own healing.
So I think it works to break that dichotomy between therapist and client by saying, it's a dance, not a guide in the way some people would see. I'm helping people along, know you're walking with. And I think that is subtle, and it takes a while to really get how that works, given how many of us are trained. But I think I've been surprised. We struggle with the title because someone had therapy in it, but Virginia wouldn't have put therapy in it, you know, so where do we go with that?
I do want. We do want to appeal to the therapeutic world, but I found that a few people have passed by the therapy word who weren't therapists, never were going to be, and said, there's something in here for me. And that's the part that I'm singing for right now and really pleased about, because it's about life.
[00:31:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
Now, a big component of this is the missing piece in other books, in other writings is the body connection to the whole person.
For people who have not really thought through the body connection, what is some information you can share just so the listeners are like, wow, I need to learn more about that. I'd like to pick up the book. What are some things that you'd like them to hear about the body connection to the whole person?
[00:32:08] Speaker A: Well, I have to say, I think Eugene Johnlin, who I actually did get to talk to, I didn't, through Virginia, has. His process opens a lot of doors for understanding that connection and how it can work. But what I think the. The whole process is about is starting to listen to your own body differently. I think we're all guided by our body and, and, and just factor it out, you know, a clenched stomach is a nuisance, not an invitation.
A vibration in your body is why I shouldn't feel that way. But it's an open door. So it's about looking at what your body already is giving you and reforming it as gift, as opposed to something you can ignore or it's not relevant, you know, so I think I meant more. Some of us will be far more aware and kinesthetic than others.
When I'm hitting on something that I feel is really important in listening to someone's talking to me, I will literally get a vibration, and I will just know that's.
That's a money piece.
So it's. It's amazing how that comes to you. I mean, I. You know, I remember a hummingbird coming at a second floor window where there were no flowers, repeatedly. And someone's talking. And I think, what's the connection here? You know? And then finally, I just got this vibration, and I said, okay. I tried to say, is this, is this to be dealt with now?
And the answer was, yes, more vibrations.
And it turned out the husband had seen his wife, who he was grieving in her, returning to him in the hummingbird form.
I would never have known that.
So I think we Will.
You know, we pick up body sensations in many different ways according to who we are.
But I think paying attention deeply to ourselves is the starting place because I think the messages are there.
[00:34:19] Speaker B: Well, thank you very much for that.
I do believe this is a must read, not just for clinicians, but for people who are just wanting to understand themselves better.
[00:34:31] Speaker A: And I hope it's an open door for people, because I'm getting quite a lot of positive reactions from people who said, oh, I never thought of things this Way. And I think that's what we want. That's who she was.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: Anything else that you want to share about the book so that potential people who are out there who have not heard about the book yet, grow an interest?
[00:34:55] Speaker A: Well, we tried to.
For people who don't know anything about satir, we tried to decide what were the pieces that they needed to know to really appreciate what people were you, how people were using her work. And I'm sure there are things we've left out. Apparently, my sister is writing all the things that I've left as she's reading the book. So I'm sure we'll get those comments, but we try to be as minimal in theory, but to give enough guidance for people, and so they don't have to feel that they have to take on the whole meal deal, but they can touch, they can go back and reference. This doesn't make sense and look at the context. So I'm hoping that we found close to the right balance between interpreting and not over interpreting. That's a tricky one, but that's my hope.
[00:35:51] Speaker B: Well, I'm so thankful for all the work that all of you put into this book. I do believe that it needed to come out. It's been wonderful. As a clinician who studies Satir's model and practices in Satir's model, I grew from it. I'm very thankful for what you all have put into this book.
[00:36:12] Speaker A: Thank you so much. You know, I think Virginia lived in the world of possibility.
She never gave up on anybody. Nobody was beyond reach.
And I think that if we can hold ourselves in that regard, as well as in clinicians, as well as just human beings. It's a beautiful starting place and another open door.
[00:36:36] Speaker B: Mary Leslie, I am so thankful that you gave us this time and joined us on this podcast. Thank you so much for our growing friendship. I appreciate that so much. And and thank you very much for what you have done for the Satir universe.
[00:36:50] Speaker A: Thank you. It's been an amazing journey. It's not over yet.
It still keeps changing us.
[00:36:59] Speaker B: As we conclude this episode of the Virginia Virginia Satir podcast, I want to leave you with a reminder that the journey of self discovery and transformation is ongoing.
Virginia Satir's wisdom continues to inspire us to nurture healthier relationships, foster open communication, and embrace personal growth. Remember, you hold the power to create positive change in your life and the lives of those around you. That's it for today's episode. See you next week. Thanks for listening to the Virginia Satir podcast. Be sure to, like, subscribe and give us a review wherever you listen to the podcast and share this with a friend. Also, for more information on Virginia Satir, you can go to satirglobal.com or liveconnectedtherapy.com. until next time, be kind to yourself and to others. You are a miracle.
